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> asking people to do work for free in order to explore the potential relationship is a big ask Asking to work somewhere without demonstrating that you can do
by tyre 10y ago
> asking people to do work for free in order to explore the potential relationship is a big ask
Asking to work somewhere without demonstrating that you can do the work is asking a lot. Unfortunately, job history alone is not enough to weed out people that cannot program (let alone well.)
> they are very time-consuming for the company.
Not if you implement a simple test spec or scoring system. We're engineers!
> the point of asking graph-traversals and similar algorithms questions is not that they are the relevant job skill.
So don't ask the generic questions. Ask someone to implement something that they would need to do on the job. Obviously don't ask them to implement a feature that takes 12 hours, but a basic screen that is a snapshot of 45 minutes of on-the-job experience isn't crazy.
We also do a take-home exercise first to see how you think without us staring at you. Day-to-day at Seneca Systems we aren't staring at you, so it feels more relevant.
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- thaumaturgy 10y ago> Asking to work somewhere without demonstrating that you can do the work is asking a lot. Which other professions have this attitude? I've either worked or supported a pretty wide variety of other jobs, and I can't off the top of my head think of a single one that does. Even if some examples are brought up (and I'm genuinely interested in what they'd be), it's far from the usual approach in most hiring situations.
- adevine 10y agoHuh? Your answer surprises me, as I can think of tons of examples. Designers are often asked to provide a portfolio to show the work they are capable of. Same thing for photographers. In a previous life I was a ballet dancer, and the whole purpose of auditions is to demonstrate that you are a competent dancer. I generally prefer an existing portfolio of code (e.g. github repos) to see the kind of code someone produces, but if you aren't able to show some fairly extensive examples of your work, homework is usually a bunch better assessment of your skills than what can be accomplished in a ~45 min interview.
- thaumaturgy 10y agoFair. I should've thought of designers and photographers. Ballet makes sense, since there are trials for prestigious orchestras and the like, but that isn't something I knew about. When I wrote my comment, I was thinking of the medical profession, dentistry, auto & other mechanics, appliance and other device repair, construction ("there's a pile of lumber in the back, you have an hour to build a shed and then we'll consider hiring you"), plumbing, civil engineering ...
- adevine 10y agoMost of those other professions you listed have much more meaningful and standardized certifications than software. A board certified cardiologist has already demonstrated real proficiency by going through the process to get certified. In software, the whole reason for these complicated hiring processes is that no one really trusts software certifications, and even company pedigree is not always a reliable signal.
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- jpttsn 10y agoContinuing: Imagine a guitarist wanted to join your band, but they refuse to let you hear them play until they're hired, saying they won't work for free.
- hinkley 10y agoWhy is your company so special that I'm the one doing all the proving? There are a lot of clowns out there, on both sides of the table. At this point I've had my quota of companies that sounded good in the interview process but ended up being like a bad second date. Full of chaos and not anything I needed in my life. One place drilled me on testing, and I mistook that for caring about tests. Nope. It turned out that not only did they not have any test automation, but their code base was such a ball of mud that you couldn't have many of them if you wanted to. I had absolutely no interest in pushing for a renewal on that contract.