2 ms·

numbers exist without sand, sand needs numbers to exist Why would sand need numbers to exist? I can pile up sand without ever knowing how many grains of sand a

by danbruc 10y ago

numbers exist without sand, sand needs numbers to exist Why would sand need numbers to exist? I can pile up sand without ever knowing how many grains of sand are in the piles. I can not see how combining several things requires numbers, it only requires several things, i.e. you have to define what the different things are, where the boundaries between them are. you can count apples instead of sand Obviously, that was just an example. You need several objects. yet physical phenomena, such as the formation of sand or apples, depends on quantity It does only insofar as you need several distinct objects, it does not depend on numbers. Also note that you have to arbitrarily decide to count apples or grains of sand. Why apples or grains, why not atoms or quarks? There is a bunch of stuff and you have to divide into several distinct objects before you can even start to count them. The fact that you decide to divide all the quarks and electrons into things you call apples is an arbitrary decision and imposes a structure on top of the things that are there by itself. Only with this imposed structure and your [imagined] action of dividing and combining subsets of the things does something like counting, and numbers and addition emerge. a hadron with three quarks is a baryon, a hadron with a different number is fundamentally different Arbitrary definition. There are quarks, calling collections of them baryons or mesons or tetraquarks is an arbitrary definition made by humans, albeit a useful one.

justifier 10y ago
> Why would sand need numbers to exist? I can pile up sand without ever knowing how many grains of sand are in the piles. But those grains of sand you are piling already exist ;P In a universe where quarks only collect in groups of four sand would fail to exist it needs baryons.. or whatever name you want to ascribe, yes it is scientifically known and recognised that naming conventions are arbitrary and often localised but naming stems from consistent behaviour In a universe without baryons to claim sand exists would be making up a new substance that uses 3 quarked particles Or if you add a fourth quark to one proton in a grain of sand it would cease to be sand So the number of quarks that collect and how they structure determines the existence of sand Similar to how a beach is formed based on the number of grains of sand anyway the root of the issue is confounding to me.. how often has physics been disproven and replaced by implementing mathematics? for me physics is behavior, mathematics is existence
- danbruc 10y ago
  Okay, let me try it from an different angle. Imagine a completely empty universe. What would be the meaning of seven?
  - criddell 10y ago
    Is time passing?
    - danbruc 10y ago
      Without anything in the universe that could change over time and therefore indicate the passing of time that seems to be rather inconsequential to me at first glance, if it is even meaningful to talk about time in such a universe. I'd say I leave that to your choosing. Also have as many space dimensions as you like and whatnot, I don't want to be to picky. I just want to take away all the objects you could use to implement sets with and on top of which you could then continue to build more structures.
  - justifier 10y ago
    if you are attempting to draw out salinger's orange peels(o), i would argue the tree makes a sound if you are sincerely asking.. i suppose i'd answer: well the same as the state of the universe: empty; now what would be the meaning of the concept that the term, or symbol, seven refers to? well, still 7, but such a universe would lack the necessary representations to express it my mathematical research begins in an 'empty universe' and questions the most base of assumptions necessary to get to a representation of, for instance, 7 an empty universe actually contains enough information to express all information utilising mathematics: the current empty 0, and the potential any state replacing the empty state 1; if time.. when emptiness begins and ends.. is allowed to be considered (o) http://materlakes.enschool.org/ourpages/auto/2013/2/25/50973306/Nine_Stories_by_J_D__Salinger.pdf http://materlakes.enschool.org/ourpages/auto/2013/2/25/50973... > "Someone just dumped a whole garbage can of orange peels out the window." ... "They float very nicely," he said without turning around. "That's interesting." ... "I don't mean it's interesting that they float," Teddy said. "It's interesting that I know about them being there. If I hadn't seen them, then I wouldn't know they were there, and if I didn't know they were there, I wouldn't be able to say that they even exist. That's a very nice, perfect example of the way--"

by danbruc 10y ago

justifier 10y ago

> Why would sand need numbers to exist? I can pile up sand without ever knowing how many grains of sand are in the piles. But those grains of sand you are piling already exist ;P In a universe where quarks only collect in groups of four sand would fail to exist it needs baryons.. or whatever name you want to ascribe, yes it is scientifically known and recognised that naming conventions are arbitrary and often localised but naming stems from consistent behaviour In a universe without baryons to claim sand exists would be making up a new substance that uses 3 quarked particles Or if you add a fourth quark to one proton in a grain of sand it would cease to be sand So the number of quarks that collect and how they structure determines the existence of sand Similar to how a beach is formed based on the number of grains of sand anyway the root of the issue is confounding to me.. how often has physics been disproven and replaced by implementing mathematics? for me physics is behavior, mathematics is existence

danbruc 10y ago
Okay, let me try it from an different angle. Imagine a completely empty universe. What would be the meaning of seven?
- criddell 10y ago
  Is time passing?
  - danbruc 10y ago
    Without anything in the universe that could change over time and therefore indicate the passing of time that seems to be rather inconsequential to me at first glance, if it is even meaningful to talk about time in such a universe. I'd say I leave that to your choosing. Also have as many space dimensions as you like and whatnot, I don't want to be to picky. I just want to take away all the objects you could use to implement sets with and on top of which you could then continue to build more structures.
- justifier 10y ago
  if you are attempting to draw out salinger's orange peels(o), i would argue the tree makes a sound if you are sincerely asking.. i suppose i'd answer: well the same as the state of the universe: empty; now what would be the meaning of the concept that the term, or symbol, seven refers to? well, still 7, but such a universe would lack the necessary representations to express it my mathematical research begins in an 'empty universe' and questions the most base of assumptions necessary to get to a representation of, for instance, 7 an empty universe actually contains enough information to express all information utilising mathematics: the current empty 0, and the potential any state replacing the empty state 1; if time.. when emptiness begins and ends.. is allowed to be considered (o) http://materlakes.enschool.org/ourpages/auto/2013/2/25/50973306/Nine_Stories_by_J_D__Salinger.pdf http://materlakes.enschool.org/ourpages/auto/2013/2/25/50973... > "Someone just dumped a whole garbage can of orange peels out the window." ... "They float very nicely," he said without turning around. "That's interesting." ... "I don't mean it's interesting that they float," Teddy said. "It's interesting that I know about them being there. If I hadn't seen them, then I wouldn't know they were there, and if I didn't know they were there, I wouldn't be able to say that they even exist. That's a very nice, perfect example of the way--"