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Hey. Many valid point dahart. I guess, in 30s, one needs more sophisticated ways to project more or less the same things as one in 20s. I read/interpreted your

Hey. Many valid point dahart. I guess, in 30s, one needs more sophisticated ways to project more or less the same things as one in 20s. I read/interpreted your "wanting" a job statement, the wrong way :)

dahart 10y ago
When multiple people take it a different way than I intended, then I must assume that it's my fault and I did a bad job of communicating my idea. I could rephrase what I meant to say as simply try to talk less about what you need and talk more about what the company needs. Let the company ask you about what you need. As other people have pointed out, getting a job is similar to dating. Mutual interest makes a good pairing, and two parties that are only self-interested makes a bad pairing. It would be a bad idea to tell someone they should date you because you really just want to have sex with someone -- anyone -- right? It's a bad idea to date someone you like who doesn't like you, but agrees to it anyway because you pay for meals. It's a good idea to date someone who likes your personality and looks, and someone who's personality and looks you like, someone who you genuinely want to learn more about and look forward to talking to every day.
- vonmoltke 10y ago
  > As other people have pointed out, getting a job is similar to dating. Mutual interest makes a good pairing, and two parties that are only self-interested makes a bad pairing. This is a common analogy, but one I fundamentally disagree with. Dating is about creating a deep personal bond with a single other person. Getting a job is business, and business is fundamentally about two or more self-interested parties coming to a mutually beneficial agreement. I think not treating the process as such, and treating it like dating, are at the root of this industry's hiring issues.
  - dahart 10y ago
    I don't disagree. :) I'm intrigued and want to hear more of your take, though we might be too deep in the comments to have a meaningful conversation. The analogy isn't perfect, of course, but I only think interviewing and dating are similar in some ways, not all ways, and they aren't the same thing. Of course. It's true that business is about finances and not bonding, and there are definitely times where it's best to keep that abundantly clear, I think you add a good perspective. It's also true that I have declined to hire some people primarily due to their negative attitude and declared lack of interest in the company or the job they're applying for, and I know others who've made exactly the same call. I also screwed up a job interview once by being overtly disinterested, and regretted it and it stuck with me. So, we can certainly disagree about how it's characterized, I don't mind what we call it, but it's still true that coming to a job interview disinterested or only as a self-interested financial arrangement is less likely to score you the job you want. I can say from personal experience that starting a company truly is similar in many ways to getting married, with all the trials and tribulations. To come to that relationship primarily as a self-interested party simply may not functionally work at all, and it's certainly very common for business partners to be mutually emotionally invested. Having interviewed some people recently for a more co-founder type of position, the process was more literally like dating than any engineer hiring I did before. People were in fact looking for a personality match, and requested that I take personality tests to validate that. People do look for an alignment of vision, and do evaluate me on the basis that we'll be spending a lot of time together should we pair up. We talked business too, but the evaluation of common goals and personality match, general likability, work ethic, goals and dreams for the future, these things were the primary traits I was judged by, not my technical skills, and not the financial equation. And not by my ass either, so yes, it's not dating, but it was surprisingly close. ;)

dahart 10y ago

When multiple people take it a different way than I intended, then I must assume that it's my fault and I did a bad job of communicating my idea. I could rephrase what I meant to say as simply try to talk less about what you need and talk more about what the company needs. Let the company ask you about what you need. As other people have pointed out, getting a job is similar to dating. Mutual interest makes a good pairing, and two parties that are only self-interested makes a bad pairing. It would be a bad idea to tell someone they should date you because you really just want to have sex with someone -- anyone -- right? It's a bad idea to date someone you like who doesn't like you, but agrees to it anyway because you pay for meals. It's a good idea to date someone who likes your personality and looks, and someone who's personality and looks you like, someone who you genuinely want to learn more about and look forward to talking to every day.

vonmoltke 10y ago
> As other people have pointed out, getting a job is similar to dating. Mutual interest makes a good pairing, and two parties that are only self-interested makes a bad pairing. This is a common analogy, but one I fundamentally disagree with. Dating is about creating a deep personal bond with a single other person. Getting a job is business, and business is fundamentally about two or more self-interested parties coming to a mutually beneficial agreement. I think not treating the process as such, and treating it like dating, are at the root of this industry's hiring issues.
- dahart 10y ago
  I don't disagree. :) I'm intrigued and want to hear more of your take, though we might be too deep in the comments to have a meaningful conversation. The analogy isn't perfect, of course, but I only think interviewing and dating are similar in some ways, not all ways, and they aren't the same thing. Of course. It's true that business is about finances and not bonding, and there are definitely times where it's best to keep that abundantly clear, I think you add a good perspective. It's also true that I have declined to hire some people primarily due to their negative attitude and declared lack of interest in the company or the job they're applying for, and I know others who've made exactly the same call. I also screwed up a job interview once by being overtly disinterested, and regretted it and it stuck with me. So, we can certainly disagree about how it's characterized, I don't mind what we call it, but it's still true that coming to a job interview disinterested or only as a self-interested financial arrangement is less likely to score you the job you want. I can say from personal experience that starting a company truly is similar in many ways to getting married, with all the trials and tribulations. To come to that relationship primarily as a self-interested party simply may not functionally work at all, and it's certainly very common for business partners to be mutually emotionally invested. Having interviewed some people recently for a more co-founder type of position, the process was more literally like dating than any engineer hiring I did before. People were in fact looking for a personality match, and requested that I take personality tests to validate that. People do look for an alignment of vision, and do evaluate me on the basis that we'll be spending a lot of time together should we pair up. We talked business too, but the evaluation of common goals and personality match, general likability, work ethic, goals and dreams for the future, these things were the primary traits I was judged by, not my technical skills, and not the financial equation. And not by my ass either, so yes, it's not dating, but it was surprisingly close. ;)