5 ms·

Tip of iceberg. I'm a divorced father of two sons and lucky enough to have a position that gives me some (not a lot) of flexibility in work schedule. The Courts

by rrggrr 10y ago

Tip of iceberg. I'm a divorced father of two sons and lucky enough to have a position that gives me some (not a lot) of flexibility in work schedule. The Courts, as many divorced fathers will say, haven't heard the news about the ever increasing decline in the 'Dad Job'. In my state thousands of men are in jail for non-payment of child support because the 'Dad Job' isn't available in this state. Progress toward the agnostic treatment of men and women in raising children, providing for the household, and making a home is still far behind the reality in most (not all) Courts, despite claims to the contrary. It took most of my net worth to ensure my presence in my kids lives would be regular and meaningful and to ensure child support reflected my former wife's multi-million dollar net worth. Perhaps a level playing field is emerging as the 'Dad Job' declines, I don't know. Its of little benefit to the tens of thousands of men in the United States whose reality is of no concern to anyone.

jcoffland 10y ago
I'm sure this situation is very real for you but you exaggerate a little. Most men do not end up in jail for failing to make child support payments. Child support enforcement is a long drawn out process. Edit: But I could be wrong. I found several anecdotal articles about this subject on the NY Times and elsewhere. Here's a more informative article on the topic http://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/child-support-and-incarceration.aspx http://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/child-support-an...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- erik998 10y ago
  I don't think it's an exaggeration. In some areas its not permanent jail, you just go to jail on weekends. However, the structure of justifying best efforts to pay child support exists in a world of dad jobs. You can't get letters from Uber stating you gave it a good effort X many days this week. Getting an attorney costs money, if you had money I am sure it would go to child support. Additionally, it is not easy to take time off most jobs to attend court hearings. It also does not reflect well if you ask your employer for time to attend such hearings.
  - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
    That's still jail - so no I don't think it's an exaggeration. It's also functionally debtors prison and totally insane.
- rangibaby 10y ago
  Most vs too many can be separate things.
- rrggrr 10y ago
  I didn't say most men. I said thousands in my state. And, the problem is worse than you know. For every man jailed for non-payment of support there are (anecdotally) probably 50 or so desperately struggling to meet their support obligations AND find time to have an impactful presence in their children's lives. I can tell you from personal experience and those of my friends that these struggles are met with indifference by the Courts and Legislators. Worse, the struggle is used as leverage by non-support paying spouses to control and alienate. Until you live it its impossible to understand how inequitable the process is.
  - jcoffland 10y ago
    So what's your solution? Let the fathers off the hook?
    - SophosQ 10y ago
      I don't think anyone here has such intentions. I'd refrain from using excluded-middle fallacies at HN.
- scurvy 10y ago
  They most definitely end up in jail: "Former Saint Robert Meachem jailed for unpaid child support, alimony" http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2017/02/robert_meachem_in_jail.html http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2017/02/robert_meachem_i...
- a3n 10y ago
  Anecdote: I've talked to a couple people who were in jail locally (in the US). Their experience was that "most" of the people in jail with them were in for DUI or child support. "Most" can probably be thought of as "enough to notice." Of course they didn't survey professionally, yadda yadda. Of course most men don't end up in jail for anything at all, ever, but it's a common enough experience to notice. Disclaimer: I'm divorced, paid child support for 15 years, and was nervous all the way to the last payment.
  - jordanb 10y ago
    What kind of jail were they in? That is going to affect the population. If they were in minimum security or small town jails, then it seems perfectly natural that most would be DUI and Child Support because others would go to different institutions.
    - a3n 10y ago
      Yes, it was county/city jail. And yes, that's where they would "naturally" go, but many of the child support cases probably don't need to be in jail. Some do, some don't, the ratio is debatable.
kobeya 10y ago
> In my state thousands of men are in jail for non-payment of child support ... how does that make any sense?
- alextheparrot 10y ago
  The American criminal system tends to punish individuals over treating problems. It is, at very least, internally consistent.
- nyargh 10y ago
  It doesn't. Courts take hardship into account, but only retroactively. If you had a good job, then lost it, your required payments will not automatically be adjusted. You will need to petition the court for an adjustment - which apparently many people lack the awareness or resources to do.
  - parasubvert 10y ago
    Well I'm not sure how automatic payment adjustment would work - seems easy to defraud. Petitioning the court for an adjustment is a fairly low cost approach; both partners' 1040s in the US / T4s in Canada would be compared on a rolling average or similar formula to adjust the payments. Self representing for this isn't out of the ordinary, if costs need to be saved.
  - avn2109 10y ago
    On the topic of courts, there is a lot of severely misleading legal misinformation in this thread. I really really encourage people to read reliable resources (aka not the comments here) before making decisions. A good example of a reliable resource is [0], which is a fairly comprehensive list of divorce outcomes by state, co-written by an MIT CompSci professor. It also includes excerpts from interviews with very experienced divorce attorneys in most states. If you don't like this site for some reason, there are other good resources too. Please don't just believe the comments here as gospel truth. [0] http://www.realworlddivorce.com/ http://www.realworlddivorce.com/
- ArkyBeagle 10y ago
parasubvert 10y ago
It does depend on the regional court to some degree, but many urban jurisdictions these days make a presumption of joint custody and look at the income disparity to determine the child support and/or alimony formula. There's no sex-preference involved beyond what you bring to the case (did she stay at home for maternity leave? Did he take paternity leave? How did the parenting responsibilities split?) Canada in particular has some challenges around vagueness with "best interests of the child" as the main focus of separation and customary and access cases... but for 20 years now there is almost no reason two partners wouldn't get joint access/custody 50-50 if one of them wants it and has shown past interest in parenting + doesn't have evidence of violent/absuive conduct. You'd have to fight for it potentially, if your former partner wants sole custody, but that's a very high bar to prove. court is potential great cost, but you would probably settle to 50/50 beffore it went to trial once reality sinks with your ex.
oceanghost 10y ago
This. I had to quit my sw job after the psychopathic management expected me to work 70 hour weeks with a newborn. After 6 months of 2 - 4 hours sleep and insane work stress (all synthetic), the stress on my physical and mental health was not sustainable. My wife had to take a job-- and I cannot, and I mean cannot find anything that doesn't expect startup hours or would allow me to pick up my daughter from day care on time (and the last thing I want for her is day care believe me).

by rrggrr 10y ago

jcoffland 10y ago

I'm sure this situation is very real for you but you exaggerate a little. Most men do not end up in jail for failing to make child support payments. Child support enforcement is a long drawn out process. Edit: But I could be wrong. I found several anecdotal articles about this subject on the NY Times and elsewhere. Here's a more informative article on the topic http://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/child-support-and-incarceration.aspx http://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/child-support-an...

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
erik998 10y ago
I don't think it's an exaggeration. In some areas its not permanent jail, you just go to jail on weekends. However, the structure of justifying best efforts to pay child support exists in a world of dad jobs. You can't get letters from Uber stating you gave it a good effort X many days this week. Getting an attorney costs money, if you had money I am sure it would go to child support. Additionally, it is not easy to take time off most jobs to attend court hearings. It also does not reflect well if you ask your employer for time to attend such hearings.
- AndrewKemendo 10y ago
  That's still jail - so no I don't think it's an exaggeration. It's also functionally debtors prison and totally insane.
rangibaby 10y ago
Most vs too many can be separate things.
rrggrr 10y ago
I didn't say most men. I said thousands in my state. And, the problem is worse than you know. For every man jailed for non-payment of support there are (anecdotally) probably 50 or so desperately struggling to meet their support obligations AND find time to have an impactful presence in their children's lives. I can tell you from personal experience and those of my friends that these struggles are met with indifference by the Courts and Legislators. Worse, the struggle is used as leverage by non-support paying spouses to control and alienate. Until you live it its impossible to understand how inequitable the process is.
- jcoffland 10y ago
  So what's your solution? Let the fathers off the hook?
  - SophosQ 10y ago
    I don't think anyone here has such intentions. I'd refrain from using excluded-middle fallacies at HN.
scurvy 10y ago
They most definitely end up in jail: "Former Saint Robert Meachem jailed for unpaid child support, alimony" http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2017/02/robert_meachem_in_jail.html http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2017/02/robert_meachem_i...
a3n 10y ago
Anecdote: I've talked to a couple people who were in jail locally (in the US). Their experience was that "most" of the people in jail with them were in for DUI or child support. "Most" can probably be thought of as "enough to notice." Of course they didn't survey professionally, yadda yadda. Of course most men don't end up in jail for anything at all, ever, but it's a common enough experience to notice. Disclaimer: I'm divorced, paid child support for 15 years, and was nervous all the way to the last payment.
- jordanb 10y ago
  What kind of jail were they in? That is going to affect the population. If they were in minimum security or small town jails, then it seems perfectly natural that most would be DUI and Child Support because others would go to different institutions.
  - a3n 10y ago
    Yes, it was county/city jail. And yes, that's where they would "naturally" go, but many of the child support cases probably don't need to be in jail. Some do, some don't, the ratio is debatable.

kobeya 10y ago

> In my state thousands of men are in jail for non-payment of child support ... how does that make any sense?

alextheparrot 10y ago
The American criminal system tends to punish individuals over treating problems. It is, at very least, internally consistent.
nyargh 10y ago
It doesn't. Courts take hardship into account, but only retroactively. If you had a good job, then lost it, your required payments will not automatically be adjusted. You will need to petition the court for an adjustment - which apparently many people lack the awareness or resources to do.
- parasubvert 10y ago
  Well I'm not sure how automatic payment adjustment would work - seems easy to defraud. Petitioning the court for an adjustment is a fairly low cost approach; both partners' 1040s in the US / T4s in Canada would be compared on a rolling average or similar formula to adjust the payments. Self representing for this isn't out of the ordinary, if costs need to be saved.
- avn2109 10y ago
  On the topic of courts, there is a lot of severely misleading legal misinformation in this thread. I really really encourage people to read reliable resources (aka not the comments here) before making decisions. A good example of a reliable resource is [0], which is a fairly comprehensive list of divorce outcomes by state, co-written by an MIT CompSci professor. It also includes excerpts from interviews with very experienced divorce attorneys in most states. If you don't like this site for some reason, there are other good resources too. Please don't just believe the comments here as gospel truth. [0] http://www.realworlddivorce.com/ http://www.realworlddivorce.com/
ArkyBeagle 10y ago

parasubvert 10y ago

It does depend on the regional court to some degree, but many urban jurisdictions these days make a presumption of joint custody and look at the income disparity to determine the child support and/or alimony formula. There's no sex-preference involved beyond what you bring to the case (did she stay at home for maternity leave? Did he take paternity leave? How did the parenting responsibilities split?) Canada in particular has some challenges around vagueness with "best interests of the child" as the main focus of separation and customary and access cases... but for 20 years now there is almost no reason two partners wouldn't get joint access/custody 50-50 if one of them wants it and has shown past interest in parenting + doesn't have evidence of violent/absuive conduct. You'd have to fight for it potentially, if your former partner wants sole custody, but that's a very high bar to prove. court is potential great cost, but you would probably settle to 50/50 beffore it went to trial once reality sinks with your ex.

oceanghost 10y ago

This. I had to quit my sw job after the psychopathic management expected me to work 70 hour weeks with a newborn. After 6 months of 2 - 4 hours sleep and insane work stress (all synthetic), the stress on my physical and mental health was not sustainable. My wife had to take a job-- and I cannot, and I mean cannot find anything that doesn't expect startup hours or would allow me to pick up my daughter from day care on time (and the last thing I want for her is day care believe me).