5 ms·

You can't "make it" or legislate that everyone gets to live in San Francisco or in a house by the beach if they work a minimum wage job. That's how you get into

You can't "make it" or legislate that everyone gets to live in San Francisco or in a house by the beach if they work a minimum wage job. That's how you get into the unafforable mess. Most cities with unaffordable housing, like NYC and SF, have rent controls and zoning issues artificially increasing demand and tightening supply simultaneously.

galdosdi 10y ago
For NYC, that's a myth. There are two programs: "rent control" - grandfathered in old program that affects a very, very small number of apartments, not enough to make any market price difference, except for the lucky few who happen to have these "rent stabilization" - a huge proportion of apartments are affected by this program, but it only applies to buildings built before 1970something, so it obviously can't affect new construction incentives. Even if it did, it's so full of loopholes I don't see it affecting the market prices. Outside of lower Manhattan, rent stabilized apartments often have official maximum prices well above the current rent. The difference is explained by a legal fiction called "preferential rent" ie, the landlord is giving the tenant a temporary discount and reserves the right to raise up to the maximum legal rent at any time. So, no, in NYC, rent regulations aren't significantly contributing to a housing shortage. The main obstacle to building more housing, is building more housing. Duh.
paulddraper 10y ago
Exactly. High rent is an economic signal, saying "build more housing" or "move away". You have to listen to it, not fight it.
- dilap 10y ago
  but non-city areas are cultural wastelands. theyve been hollowed out. does it really have to be the case that nice cities by the sea can only be the playground of the elite and the workaholic childless?
  - knz 10y ago
    Many mid size urban areas (often away from the coasts) are having a small renaissance and have a thriving local culture. Rural areas aren't a cultural wasteland either. Urbanization had been a consistent pattern for centuries now - decreasing economic opportunity isn't anything new to rural areas.
    - dilap 10y ago
      for sure i exaggerate. but still: look at hemingway, for example. he could work and live in new orleans, easily, with plenty of time left over to write. can you do that anymore? i dont think so. we've lost something.
      - ghaff 10y ago
        New Orleans isn't the best example. Costs have gone back up somewhat post-Katrina but 1BR rents are still close to $1K/month depending on location. New Orleans isn't a particularly expensive city, especially outside a few premium uptown locations.
        dilap 10y ago
        $1K a month is still essentially 100% of your income at minimum wage. But yeah, it's not as crazy as SF for sure.
  - ghaff 10y ago
    >non-city areas are cultural wastelands That's quite the broad brush. Most desirable locations are pretty much by definition going to be expensive to live in. Well, some people like the sunbelt and it's less pricey than the coastal cities that people like. In any case, cities create their own culture. There's nothing unique to a handful of coastal areas that are in vogue with the tech crowd.
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
    >does it really have to be the case that nice cities by the sea can only be the playground of the elite and the workaholic childless? Well, if those nice cities refuse to build enough housing for everyone, even though they have the land-area... yes.
- knz 10y ago
  Is the resistance to more high density housing in SFO just due to a NIMBY mentality? Building up seems like such an obvious solution and one that would only benefit the economy there - how much talent avoids moving to the Bay area due to the cost of housing and associated issues. Lack of jobs is another economic signal but our recent election has shown that voters have an expectation that they will be able to stay in their communities (an interesting contrast to centuries of increasing urbanization).
  - vidarh 10y ago
    Many places building up would negate what made the people currently living there choose to move there. It's a tradeoff between the interests of those currently living there and those who aspire to living there.
    - knz 10y ago
      Is that unique to the bay area though? It's been a few years since I was there but to seem I recall some larger high rise buildings. Smaller apartment blocks (3 stories etc) doesn't have to come at the expense of the lifestyle either - the large European cities I've been to all had thriving neighborhood's , likewise with parts of larger US cities.
      - vidarh 10y ago
        The Bay Area is very diverse. What residents would object to varies accordingly. > Smaller apartment blocks (3 stories etc) doesn't have to come at the expense of the lifestyle either - the large European cities I've been to all had thriving neighborhood's , likewise with parts of larger US cities. Of course you can. That's not the issue. The issue is that in many of these areas the current residents largely do not want this because they don't want the character of the areas to change. It boils down to how much control you want existing residents to have over planning. This would be equally hard to change in most of Europe in places where you have geographically constrained areas full of wealthy owners that does not want the area to change too much.
    - 10y ago
- gcb0 10y ago
  if ny or sf didn't have rent control it would now be a cultural wasteland just like the valley.
  - dilap 10y ago
    i think you may be right, and it is trending that way anyway.
- vidarh 10y ago
  It's also a signal saying "try to develop business clusters elsewhere" to government, and that's where it often falls apart - a large chunk of demand for housing follows job availability.
  - paulddraper 10y ago
    Government doesn't normally develop businesses, but I agree. "Find cheaper employees elsewhere" is another message.
    - vidarh 10y ago
      Government almost everywhere, including even places like the US, does however do things like provide tax incentives and subsidies or plan infrastructure improvements in order to shape where businesses choose to locate themselves.
dilap 10y ago
it's an extreme and i would not advocate it, but cuba shows it is possible. i also think with amount of money sf spends -- which is A LOT -- we could provide way better circumstances, if better managed.

galdosdi 10y ago

For NYC, that's a myth. There are two programs: "rent control" - grandfathered in old program that affects a very, very small number of apartments, not enough to make any market price difference, except for the lucky few who happen to have these "rent stabilization" - a huge proportion of apartments are affected by this program, but it only applies to buildings built before 1970something, so it obviously can't affect new construction incentives. Even if it did, it's so full of loopholes I don't see it affecting the market prices. Outside of lower Manhattan, rent stabilized apartments often have official maximum prices well above the current rent. The difference is explained by a legal fiction called "preferential rent" ie, the landlord is giving the tenant a temporary discount and reserves the right to raise up to the maximum legal rent at any time. So, no, in NYC, rent regulations aren't significantly contributing to a housing shortage. The main obstacle to building more housing, is building more housing. Duh.

paulddraper 10y ago

Exactly. High rent is an economic signal, saying "build more housing" or "move away". You have to listen to it, not fight it.

dilap 10y ago
but non-city areas are cultural wastelands. theyve been hollowed out. does it really have to be the case that nice cities by the sea can only be the playground of the elite and the workaholic childless?
- knz 10y ago
  Many mid size urban areas (often away from the coasts) are having a small renaissance and have a thriving local culture. Rural areas aren't a cultural wasteland either. Urbanization had been a consistent pattern for centuries now - decreasing economic opportunity isn't anything new to rural areas.
  - dilap 10y ago
    for sure i exaggerate. but still: look at hemingway, for example. he could work and live in new orleans, easily, with plenty of time left over to write. can you do that anymore? i dont think so. we've lost something.
    - ghaff 10y ago
      New Orleans isn't the best example. Costs have gone back up somewhat post-Katrina but 1BR rents are still close to $1K/month depending on location. New Orleans isn't a particularly expensive city, especially outside a few premium uptown locations.
      - dilap 10y ago
        $1K a month is still essentially 100% of your income at minimum wage. But yeah, it's not as crazy as SF for sure.
- ghaff 10y ago
  >non-city areas are cultural wastelands That's quite the broad brush. Most desirable locations are pretty much by definition going to be expensive to live in. Well, some people like the sunbelt and it's less pricey than the coastal cities that people like. In any case, cities create their own culture. There's nothing unique to a handful of coastal areas that are in vogue with the tech crowd.
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  >does it really have to be the case that nice cities by the sea can only be the playground of the elite and the workaholic childless? Well, if those nice cities refuse to build enough housing for everyone, even though they have the land-area... yes.
knz 10y ago
Is the resistance to more high density housing in SFO just due to a NIMBY mentality? Building up seems like such an obvious solution and one that would only benefit the economy there - how much talent avoids moving to the Bay area due to the cost of housing and associated issues. Lack of jobs is another economic signal but our recent election has shown that voters have an expectation that they will be able to stay in their communities (an interesting contrast to centuries of increasing urbanization).
- vidarh 10y ago
  Many places building up would negate what made the people currently living there choose to move there. It's a tradeoff between the interests of those currently living there and those who aspire to living there.
  - knz 10y ago
    Is that unique to the bay area though? It's been a few years since I was there but to seem I recall some larger high rise buildings. Smaller apartment blocks (3 stories etc) doesn't have to come at the expense of the lifestyle either - the large European cities I've been to all had thriving neighborhood's , likewise with parts of larger US cities.
    - vidarh 10y ago
      The Bay Area is very diverse. What residents would object to varies accordingly. > Smaller apartment blocks (3 stories etc) doesn't have to come at the expense of the lifestyle either - the large European cities I've been to all had thriving neighborhood's , likewise with parts of larger US cities. Of course you can. That's not the issue. The issue is that in many of these areas the current residents largely do not want this because they don't want the character of the areas to change. It boils down to how much control you want existing residents to have over planning. This would be equally hard to change in most of Europe in places where you have geographically constrained areas full of wealthy owners that does not want the area to change too much.
  - 10y ago
gcb0 10y ago
if ny or sf didn't have rent control it would now be a cultural wasteland just like the valley.
- dilap 10y ago
  i think you may be right, and it is trending that way anyway.
vidarh 10y ago
It's also a signal saying "try to develop business clusters elsewhere" to government, and that's where it often falls apart - a large chunk of demand for housing follows job availability.
- paulddraper 10y ago
  Government doesn't normally develop businesses, but I agree. "Find cheaper employees elsewhere" is another message.
  - vidarh 10y ago
    Government almost everywhere, including even places like the US, does however do things like provide tax incentives and subsidies or plan infrastructure improvements in order to shape where businesses choose to locate themselves.

dilap 10y ago

it's an extreme and i would not advocate it, but cuba shows it is possible. i also think with amount of money sf spends -- which is A LOT -- we could provide way better circumstances, if better managed.