7 ms·

here in sf many people are out on the streets. families are out on the beaches & hills of hawaii. we have got to make it, as a culture, possible for anyone will

by dilap 10y ago

here in sf many people are out on the streets. families are out on the beaches & hills of hawaii. we have got to make it, as a culture, possible for anyone willing to play along at a reasonable level to have a good life. we are failing at this, and it is tragic, and it is not a world any of is should be happy to be in. we have immense, mind-blowing wealth as a culture and as a nation. we need to do better.

stevenmays 10y ago
You can't "make it" or legislate that everyone gets to live in San Francisco or in a house by the beach if they work a minimum wage job. That's how you get into the unafforable mess. Most cities with unaffordable housing, like NYC and SF, have rent controls and zoning issues artificially increasing demand and tightening supply simultaneously.
- galdosdi 10y ago
  For NYC, that's a myth. There are two programs: "rent control" - grandfathered in old program that affects a very, very small number of apartments, not enough to make any market price difference, except for the lucky few who happen to have these "rent stabilization" - a huge proportion of apartments are affected by this program, but it only applies to buildings built before 1970something, so it obviously can't affect new construction incentives. Even if it did, it's so full of loopholes I don't see it affecting the market prices. Outside of lower Manhattan, rent stabilized apartments often have official maximum prices well above the current rent. The difference is explained by a legal fiction called "preferential rent" ie, the landlord is giving the tenant a temporary discount and reserves the right to raise up to the maximum legal rent at any time. So, no, in NYC, rent regulations aren't significantly contributing to a housing shortage. The main obstacle to building more housing, is building more housing. Duh.
- paulddraper 10y ago
  Exactly. High rent is an economic signal, saying "build more housing" or "move away". You have to listen to it, not fight it.
  - dilap 10y ago
    but non-city areas are cultural wastelands. theyve been hollowed out. does it really have to be the case that nice cities by the sea can only be the playground of the elite and the workaholic childless?
    - knz 10y ago
      Many mid size urban areas (often away from the coasts) are having a small renaissance and have a thriving local culture. Rural areas aren't a cultural wasteland either. Urbanization had been a consistent pattern for centuries now - decreasing economic opportunity isn't anything new to rural areas.
      - dilap 10y ago
        for sure i exaggerate. but still: look at hemingway, for example. he could work and live in new orleans, easily, with plenty of time left over to write. can you do that anymore? i dont think so. we've lost something.
        ghaff 10y ago
        New Orleans isn't the best example. Costs have gone back up somewhat post-Katrina but 1BR rents are still close to $1K/month depending on location. New Orleans isn't a particularly expensive city, especially outside a few premium uptown locations.
        dilap 10y ago
        $1K a month is still essentially 100% of your income at minimum wage. But yeah, it's not as crazy as SF for sure.
    - ghaff 10y ago
      >non-city areas are cultural wastelands That's quite the broad brush. Most desirable locations are pretty much by definition going to be expensive to live in. Well, some people like the sunbelt and it's less pricey than the coastal cities that people like. In any case, cities create their own culture. There's nothing unique to a handful of coastal areas that are in vogue with the tech crowd.
- dilap 10y ago
  it's an extreme and i would not advocate it, but cuba shows it is possible. i also think with amount of money sf spends -- which is A LOT -- we could provide way better circumstances, if better managed.
RockyMcNuts 10y ago
good life? I'd settle for, make it possible for anyone who works hard to get by on food, clothing, shelter, basic medical care.
e40 10y ago
The number of tents on the sidewalks and under overpasses has gone up dramatically in the last year. I walk to work in the East Bay (across from SF) and it's really worrying. What gets me, there's no talk about this anywhere I see (IRL). It's like no one wants to admit there's a problem.
- rsync 10y ago
  In case you are interested, there is quite a bit of talk on this, and other matters in the SFBA: http://48hills.org/ http://48hills.org/ Most of what is written on that site doesn't resonate with me but it's a good window into that discussion ...
- FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
  This is a highly visible public issue in Los Angeles, so much so that voters recently approved a $1.2 billion proposition for housing the homeless. Now, that measure is under threat because of a recent ballet proposal that wants to stop all housing development under the pretense of stopping gentrification. Side note: Along with this, I've noticed that the demographics of the homeless has been changing. More and more of the homeless don't look like what one would expect (alcoholic/drug addict, older/rough look due to addiction, etc.) Just anecdotally, in my area, there has been a recent uptick in crime as well and the crimes are becoming more brazen. I'm extrapolating, but it seems like the opportunity cost of crime has gone down. Perhaps more people feel the system failed them and have lost faith and/or simply do not care for a society that doesn't care about them. In any event, it's an unsettling trend that is being glossed over when statistics say that we are at full employment. I saw these trends in 2006-7 before the financial crisis.
  - tjalfi 10y ago
    Proposition 47 reduced many felony theft offenses to misdemeanors. It would be surprising if this didn't lead to an increase in crime in California.
    - FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago

by dilap 10y ago

stevenmays 10y ago

You can't "make it" or legislate that everyone gets to live in San Francisco or in a house by the beach if they work a minimum wage job. That's how you get into the unafforable mess. Most cities with unaffordable housing, like NYC and SF, have rent controls and zoning issues artificially increasing demand and tightening supply simultaneously.

galdosdi 10y ago
For NYC, that's a myth. There are two programs: "rent control" - grandfathered in old program that affects a very, very small number of apartments, not enough to make any market price difference, except for the lucky few who happen to have these "rent stabilization" - a huge proportion of apartments are affected by this program, but it only applies to buildings built before 1970something, so it obviously can't affect new construction incentives. Even if it did, it's so full of loopholes I don't see it affecting the market prices. Outside of lower Manhattan, rent stabilized apartments often have official maximum prices well above the current rent. The difference is explained by a legal fiction called "preferential rent" ie, the landlord is giving the tenant a temporary discount and reserves the right to raise up to the maximum legal rent at any time. So, no, in NYC, rent regulations aren't significantly contributing to a housing shortage. The main obstacle to building more housing, is building more housing. Duh.
paulddraper 10y ago
Exactly. High rent is an economic signal, saying "build more housing" or "move away". You have to listen to it, not fight it.
- dilap 10y ago
  but non-city areas are cultural wastelands. theyve been hollowed out. does it really have to be the case that nice cities by the sea can only be the playground of the elite and the workaholic childless?
  - knz 10y ago
    Many mid size urban areas (often away from the coasts) are having a small renaissance and have a thriving local culture. Rural areas aren't a cultural wasteland either. Urbanization had been a consistent pattern for centuries now - decreasing economic opportunity isn't anything new to rural areas.
    - dilap 10y ago
      for sure i exaggerate. but still: look at hemingway, for example. he could work and live in new orleans, easily, with plenty of time left over to write. can you do that anymore? i dont think so. we've lost something.
      - ghaff 10y ago
        New Orleans isn't the best example. Costs have gone back up somewhat post-Katrina but 1BR rents are still close to $1K/month depending on location. New Orleans isn't a particularly expensive city, especially outside a few premium uptown locations.
        dilap 10y ago
        $1K a month is still essentially 100% of your income at minimum wage. But yeah, it's not as crazy as SF for sure.
  - ghaff 10y ago
    >non-city areas are cultural wastelands That's quite the broad brush. Most desirable locations are pretty much by definition going to be expensive to live in. Well, some people like the sunbelt and it's less pricey than the coastal cities that people like. In any case, cities create their own culture. There's nothing unique to a handful of coastal areas that are in vogue with the tech crowd.
dilap 10y ago
it's an extreme and i would not advocate it, but cuba shows it is possible. i also think with amount of money sf spends -- which is A LOT -- we could provide way better circumstances, if better managed.

RockyMcNuts 10y ago

good life? I'd settle for, make it possible for anyone who works hard to get by on food, clothing, shelter, basic medical care.

e40 10y ago

The number of tents on the sidewalks and under overpasses has gone up dramatically in the last year. I walk to work in the East Bay (across from SF) and it's really worrying. What gets me, there's no talk about this anywhere I see (IRL). It's like no one wants to admit there's a problem.

rsync 10y ago
In case you are interested, there is quite a bit of talk on this, and other matters in the SFBA: http://48hills.org/ http://48hills.org/ Most of what is written on that site doesn't resonate with me but it's a good window into that discussion ...
FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
This is a highly visible public issue in Los Angeles, so much so that voters recently approved a $1.2 billion proposition for housing the homeless. Now, that measure is under threat because of a recent ballet proposal that wants to stop all housing development under the pretense of stopping gentrification. Side note: Along with this, I've noticed that the demographics of the homeless has been changing. More and more of the homeless don't look like what one would expect (alcoholic/drug addict, older/rough look due to addiction, etc.) Just anecdotally, in my area, there has been a recent uptick in crime as well and the crimes are becoming more brazen. I'm extrapolating, but it seems like the opportunity cost of crime has gone down. Perhaps more people feel the system failed them and have lost faith and/or simply do not care for a society that doesn't care about them. In any event, it's an unsettling trend that is being glossed over when statistics say that we are at full employment. I saw these trends in 2006-7 before the financial crisis.
- tjalfi 10y ago
  Proposition 47 reduced many felony theft offenses to misdemeanors. It would be surprising if this didn't lead to an increase in crime in California.
  - FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago