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> The legal system frequently disregards intent when ruling and punishment for even small infractions can be quite severe in the US. Is this actually true? I'd

by smhost 10y ago

> The legal system frequently disregards intent when ruling and punishment for even small infractions can be quite severe in the US. Is this actually true? I'd like to learn more about if it is. My personal experience has been that all of my honest small mistakes were accepted as honest mistakes, occasionally with a small fine.

vacri 10y ago
The US incarceration rate was at 750/100k about 5 years ago, which is 1% of the adult population, and significantly higher than everywhere else on the planet. South Africa during the height of apartheid was 'only' 540. The rest of the western world is sub-200/100k, with most of them at 150 or lower. The US is more than five times more imprison-ey than pretty much any of its contemporaries, and ten times more than select examples like Norway or Germany. Unless Americans are ridiculously more criminal-minded than other humans, the US is doling out more punishment than others for the same misdeeds.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  The US has significantly more misdeeds, e.g. ~5 times as many homicides as most West European nations. This is a result of very many things of course. But U.S. is improving, though; 25 years ago the difference was more like 10 times. Some countries in Europe (like Sweden) have actually stopped improving, so eventually the U.S. will catch up. Then it will have less homicides, which is likely to also bring less incarceration. Sometimes I think that the European style is not necessarily better. E.g. yesterday I read about two cases in the local newspaper crime news section. There was 5.5 years prison sentence given to a hamburger restaurant owner for tax evasion done over the course of 6 months, and 90 hours of community service plus conditional imprisonment for an aggravated child molestation over a period of 7 years. This ratio doesn't look right to me, but it's what we do to get the low incarceration rate.
  - vacri 10y ago
    25 years ago was when the US incarceration rate was ballooning. The 80s and 90s were the start of a massive surge in incarceration[1], up from the baseline. The idea that the US is improving and other nations have 'stopped' is only because the US departed so significantly from the pack in the first place. Similarly, while the US has a ridiculously high homicide rate, most of the people in prison are not murderers. The way you're phrasing it is like saying "The A+ student has stopped improving, whereas the failing student is still failing but improving[2]. One day he'll catch up to the A+ student" As for the odd sentences you mention, you can cherrypick weird sentences in any system. In Texas, for example, there was a black 14-year-old who punched some and they died, and he got ten years for it. There was a wealthy white 16-year-old whose reckless driving killed four and injured seven, and he got no jail time for it. The defense arguments included 'he never learned to say sorry because he was brought up wealthy - you sent money instead of saying sorry'. The kicker about these two sentences? They were issued by the same judge [3]. In California, another serious case ended in a significantly reduced sentence because the judge thought that the defendant's wealthy upbringing meant he wouldn't be able to 'survive prison as well'. And New York is replete with stories of people being incarcerated for years without a trial [4]. Then there's the famous 'pizza-slice' felony, where three-strikes laws sent a man to prison for life for stealing a slice of pizza [5]. The point here is that you can find all sorts of oddities in sentencing - what really matters on a national scale is the aggregate. You mention the sentence for that single child molester - is that happening for a large number of such cases? The US system is ridiculously fucked up, and it has to improve a lot before it can join its contemporaries. Given the general American public's bloodlust towards punishment, it ain't gonna happen. edit: sorry for the waffle, I just find the US incarceration system both fascinatingly and horrifyingly out-of-the-ordinary. -- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate#/media/File:US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_ra... [2] Actually, it isn't improving. Incarceration is much higher in the US now than 25 years ago, see [1] [3] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2524108/Judge-let-spoiled-rich-teen-killed-DUI-previously-boy-aged-fourteen-prison-TEN-YEARS.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2524108/Judge-let-sp... [4] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/nyregion/kalief-browder-held-at-rikers-island-for-3-years-without-trial-commits-suicide.html; https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/nyregion/kalief-browder-h... https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/nyregion/9-years-in-jail-3-trials-12-judges-and-no-verdict-in-bronx-murder-case.html; https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/nyregion/9-years-in-jail-... http://nypost.com/2015/06/15/kid-arrested-at-17-has-been-at-rikers-awaiting-trial-for-7-years/; http://nypost.com/2015/06/15/kid-arrested-at-17-has-been-at-... http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-ala-man-jail-8-years-awaiting-trial-article-1.2422168 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-ala-man-jail-8... [5] http://articles.latimes.com/1995-03-03/local/me-38258_1_jerry-dewayne-williams http://articles.latimes.com/1995-03-03/local/me-38258_1_jerr...
purple-again 10y ago
No this isn't true. I was a CPA focusing in Tax before transitioning to the tech world. I couldn't count the number of IRS notices I have had to address and respond to for my clients over the years. It's a real simple process. You write a letter addressing the IRS notice that was sent to the client explaining the situation along with what you have done to remedy the situation (here is the tax I owe along with penalty and interest and/or here is why you are wrong). That's it. Issue solved and problem resolved. Now if you are suspected of tax fraud, that's a whole other ball game but that doesn't come about from small honest mistakes.
- gozur88 10y ago
  Yeah, they try to put the fear of God into you at the outset, but the IRS is actually pretty lenient as long as they think you're acting in good faith.
- BeetleB 10y ago
  >You write a letter addressing the IRS notice that was sent to the client explaining the situation along with what you have done to remedy the situation (here is the tax I owe along with penalty and interest and/or here is why you are wrong). That's it. Issue solved and problem resolved. That's great if you actually made a mistake. What if you didn't? My wife got a notice for her 2013 tax form. They challenged her education credits and were saying we owe taxes + interest + penalty. Respond within 30 days or pay up. I called them up and asked what they wanted for proof. They weren't accepting the university's 1099 form (or whatever it is), because they said all it shows is the amount she was billed, not the amount she paid. Umm.. OK. What if I show bank statements that show payments to the university that match the timeframe and amount? "Sure!" Reasonable people, I thought. So we hunted down 3 year old bank statements and sent it to them. Another letter: They don't accept the statements. "Why?" I asked. "Well, all it shows is you made payments. We need proof these were for education purposes and not, say, parking fines." "But you said last time it'll be OK!" Their response was the formal equivalent of "Whatever, we don't care" So I contacted the university. They said "Just mail them the 1099!" Had to explain that it didn't work. University said it's the first time they've heard it not working. So they dug up the old billing statements that itemized the charges. In reality, it wasn't this short. We had about twice as many back and forths with the IRS as I indicated above. The process took 6 months.

by smhost 10y ago

vacri 10y ago

The US incarceration rate was at 750/100k about 5 years ago, which is 1% of the adult population, and significantly higher than everywhere else on the planet. South Africa during the height of apartheid was 'only' 540. The rest of the western world is sub-200/100k, with most of them at 150 or lower. The US is more than five times more imprison-ey than pretty much any of its contemporaries, and ten times more than select examples like Norway or Germany. Unless Americans are ridiculously more criminal-minded than other humans, the US is doling out more punishment than others for the same misdeeds.

ptaipale 10y ago
The US has significantly more misdeeds, e.g. ~5 times as many homicides as most West European nations. This is a result of very many things of course. But U.S. is improving, though; 25 years ago the difference was more like 10 times. Some countries in Europe (like Sweden) have actually stopped improving, so eventually the U.S. will catch up. Then it will have less homicides, which is likely to also bring less incarceration. Sometimes I think that the European style is not necessarily better. E.g. yesterday I read about two cases in the local newspaper crime news section. There was 5.5 years prison sentence given to a hamburger restaurant owner for tax evasion done over the course of 6 months, and 90 hours of community service plus conditional imprisonment for an aggravated child molestation over a period of 7 years. This ratio doesn't look right to me, but it's what we do to get the low incarceration rate.
- vacri 10y ago
  25 years ago was when the US incarceration rate was ballooning. The 80s and 90s were the start of a massive surge in incarceration[1], up from the baseline. The idea that the US is improving and other nations have 'stopped' is only because the US departed so significantly from the pack in the first place. Similarly, while the US has a ridiculously high homicide rate, most of the people in prison are not murderers. The way you're phrasing it is like saying "The A+ student has stopped improving, whereas the failing student is still failing but improving[2]. One day he'll catch up to the A+ student" As for the odd sentences you mention, you can cherrypick weird sentences in any system. In Texas, for example, there was a black 14-year-old who punched some and they died, and he got ten years for it. There was a wealthy white 16-year-old whose reckless driving killed four and injured seven, and he got no jail time for it. The defense arguments included 'he never learned to say sorry because he was brought up wealthy - you sent money instead of saying sorry'. The kicker about these two sentences? They were issued by the same judge [3]. In California, another serious case ended in a significantly reduced sentence because the judge thought that the defendant's wealthy upbringing meant he wouldn't be able to 'survive prison as well'. And New York is replete with stories of people being incarcerated for years without a trial [4]. Then there's the famous 'pizza-slice' felony, where three-strikes laws sent a man to prison for life for stealing a slice of pizza [5]. The point here is that you can find all sorts of oddities in sentencing - what really matters on a national scale is the aggregate. You mention the sentence for that single child molester - is that happening for a large number of such cases? The US system is ridiculously fucked up, and it has to improve a lot before it can join its contemporaries. Given the general American public's bloodlust towards punishment, it ain't gonna happen. edit: sorry for the waffle, I just find the US incarceration system both fascinatingly and horrifyingly out-of-the-ordinary. -- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate#/media/File:US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_ra... [2] Actually, it isn't improving. Incarceration is much higher in the US now than 25 years ago, see [1] [3] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2524108/Judge-let-spoiled-rich-teen-killed-DUI-previously-boy-aged-fourteen-prison-TEN-YEARS.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2524108/Judge-let-sp... [4] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/nyregion/kalief-browder-held-at-rikers-island-for-3-years-without-trial-commits-suicide.html; https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/nyregion/kalief-browder-h... https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/nyregion/9-years-in-jail-3-trials-12-judges-and-no-verdict-in-bronx-murder-case.html; https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/nyregion/9-years-in-jail-... http://nypost.com/2015/06/15/kid-arrested-at-17-has-been-at-rikers-awaiting-trial-for-7-years/; http://nypost.com/2015/06/15/kid-arrested-at-17-has-been-at-... http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-ala-man-jail-8-years-awaiting-trial-article-1.2422168 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-ala-man-jail-8... [5] http://articles.latimes.com/1995-03-03/local/me-38258_1_jerry-dewayne-williams http://articles.latimes.com/1995-03-03/local/me-38258_1_jerr...

purple-again 10y ago

No this isn't true. I was a CPA focusing in Tax before transitioning to the tech world. I couldn't count the number of IRS notices I have had to address and respond to for my clients over the years. It's a real simple process. You write a letter addressing the IRS notice that was sent to the client explaining the situation along with what you have done to remedy the situation (here is the tax I owe along with penalty and interest and/or here is why you are wrong). That's it. Issue solved and problem resolved. Now if you are suspected of tax fraud, that's a whole other ball game but that doesn't come about from small honest mistakes.

gozur88 10y ago
Yeah, they try to put the fear of God into you at the outset, but the IRS is actually pretty lenient as long as they think you're acting in good faith.
BeetleB 10y ago
>You write a letter addressing the IRS notice that was sent to the client explaining the situation along with what you have done to remedy the situation (here is the tax I owe along with penalty and interest and/or here is why you are wrong). That's it. Issue solved and problem resolved. That's great if you actually made a mistake. What if you didn't? My wife got a notice for her 2013 tax form. They challenged her education credits and were saying we owe taxes + interest + penalty. Respond within 30 days or pay up. I called them up and asked what they wanted for proof. They weren't accepting the university's 1099 form (or whatever it is), because they said all it shows is the amount she was billed, not the amount she paid. Umm.. OK. What if I show bank statements that show payments to the university that match the timeframe and amount? "Sure!" Reasonable people, I thought. So we hunted down 3 year old bank statements and sent it to them. Another letter: They don't accept the statements. "Why?" I asked. "Well, all it shows is you made payments. We need proof these were for education purposes and not, say, parking fines." "But you said last time it'll be OK!" Their response was the formal equivalent of "Whatever, we don't care" So I contacted the university. They said "Just mail them the 1099!" Had to explain that it didn't work. University said it's the first time they've heard it not working. So they dug up the old billing statements that itemized the charges. In reality, it wasn't this short. We had about twice as many back and forths with the IRS as I indicated above. The process took 6 months.