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They don't seem to have taken into account the propensity of certain governments (mostly the US and UK) to undertake extreme measures to get their citizens out

They don't seem to have taken into account the propensity of certain governments (mostly the US and UK) to undertake extreme measures to get their citizens out of trouble in foreign countries, up to and including mass evacuations and clandestine military operations. That's a feature Luxembourg doesn't offer.

kalleboo 10y ago
Are there any examples of this? Where Americans got rescued but people of another country were left behind? I only have vague recollections of articles of people complaining of the massive bills the US charges for rescue operations, and that Anthony Bourdain Beirut episode where the Americans were some of the last out, after such military powerhouses such as Sweden. Wouldn't a country like Luxembourg have an agreement with an ally? You have countries where the US has no diplomatic presence - e.g. the US doesn't have an embassy in North Korea, and Americans have to use the Swedish embassy if they need protection.
- eigenvector 10y ago
  One example would be the tepid responses of most governments to having ships flying their flag hijacked in the Gulf of Aden. The first time a US-flagged ship was hijacked, well, the result became a Tom Hanks movie because the US government responded with overwhelming military force. Pretty much any instance where the military has been sent in to rescue a country's nationals abroad is limited to the countries that have that kind of military capability, the ability to deploy it rapidly and the willingness to use it. Examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barras https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barras http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/9307833/How-the-British-hostages-were-rescued-in-Afghanistan.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/9... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_8969 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_8969 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Peacemaker_hostage_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Peacemaker_hostage_c... Is this to say that the US or UK will always rescue its citizens abroad? No. But there are types of rescues that only the US, UK, France, and maybe Russia are capable of mounting.
  - FabHK 10y ago
    Israel has frequently evacuated its citizens, too (during Operation Solomon, they flew out 1122 pax in one B747!). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Moses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Moses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Solomon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Solomon
coldtea 10y ago
>the propensity of certain governments (mostly the US and UK) to undertake extreme measures to get their citizens out of trouble in foreign countries In Hollywood movies. In real life, from a lot of accounts I've read over the years, the local embassies/consulate/etc are not much help and not very eager to help either...
- gaius 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_military_intervention_in_the_Sierra_Leone_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_military_intervention_... British Paras showed up to evacuate the city; most people decided to stay because now the city was secure...
- Twirrim 10y ago
  During the collapse of the communist regime in Albania, the US airforce was airlifting both US and UK citizens (and may be others, I only know about those two for certain) out of the country by helicopter. I know a British family of missionaries that were based out of Tirana who were evacuated that way.
- vacri 10y ago
  Military actions are the extreme end of it. Consulates can help in all sorts of ways, and the US is well-financed.
  - _of 10y ago
    And you don't think that other countries have consulates and embassies that are willing to help their citizens?
    - vacri 10y ago
      Consular effort is not binary, but a continuum.
lumberjack 10y ago
>That's a feature Luxembourg doesn't offer. Yes they do. In small countries the situation is even more personal and usually the PM himself is involved every time a citizen is caught behind enemy lines. Happened quite a lot when the US started messing around with Gaddafi. Lots of Europeans working there were very reluctant to leave and then they returned there immediately after and had to be rescued again.
- chrisseaton 10y ago
  Do many small countries have the ability to project power like that in the first place? It's not the will to do it that is a problem - it's the infrastructure to generate a suitable force and put it on the ground that requires a very long tail of people, equipment and money on permanent standby, and of course you also need the expertise and experience to do it. If you're a citizen of somewhere like Luxembourg they just don't have the capability to reach across the world into somewhere like Syria and rescue you like the US or UK would attempt to.
  - matt4077 10y ago
    I believe most of these situations get resolved diplomatically. That doesn't work with IS, but the vast majority of cases are criminal rather than terrorists, or the result of general instability. A country like Luxembourg can usually find someone who has their money in their banks and is in a position to resolve the situation. There's also quite a lot of European solidarity in such cases. Mass evacuations usually get several governments involved and they all contribute proportionally, or France sends a few planes and basks in the glory. Regarding military operations to solve such situations it seems to me as if it's a matter not just of capability but of willingness as well. Europeans tend to think 50 cents to the foreign ministry is a better investment than $1 to the military, and that approach carries over in crisis. Empirically, my impression is that military action has about a 33/33/33% rate of success/dead hostages/"we just scared a grandma and couldn't find any hostages". Diplomacy has a higher success rate but it can take years. That's the sort of trade-off I don't envy politicians for.
flavor8 10y ago
Watching episodes 3, 4 & 5 of Captive on Netflix may disabuse you if that notion. Sure, if you end up in a situation that's politically advantageous to get you out of, and/or your family has good connections or can market your case well, you may get some state assistance. But it's far from a sure thing.
kchoudhu 10y ago
I'm sure US citizens who have been trapped in Yemen for years without any assistance from their government will beg to differ. The USG's propensity to help its own citizens abroad is a function of local power politics and the ability of the petitioner to create waves in Washington. Tread carefully before getting into trouble abroad.
jernfrost 10y ago
That cuts many ways. The US and the UK has also been rather quick to ditch your citizenship and drone their own citizens to death abroad. Doesn't make their citizenship very dependable. Also with an American or UK passport you are more likely a target by baddies, and should there be a hostage situation you have the problem that the US typically don't negotiate. If being a US citizen was such an advantage, Americans wouldn't be traveling the world with Canadian flags sown onto their backpacks.
BeetleB 10y ago
Nor Canada. (Notorious for this) Nor US. (Didn't evacuate citizens) Pick any country you think does this well and I'll find examples where the country dropped the ball.
jmkni 10y ago
One of the odd upsides to being Northern Irish is that everybody here gets both a British and an Irish passport if they want one. With the Irish passport, you will have an easier time getting into and travelling between many countries, but if things go south, the UK passport may help in getting out of the Country. This will become more prominent after Brexit, as Northern Irish citizens will still be able to move and work freely throughout the EU with their Irish passport, whilst retaining the benefits of their British one (unless a United Ireland happens).
FabHK 10y ago
The US has a well-known policy of not paying ransom for kidnapped citizens abroad, and apparently doesn't even allow families to pay ransom [1]. Other governments huff and puff about it (nobody wants to encourage terrorist kidnappings), but by and large tend to bail out their citizens. Furthermore, if you get in trouble with terrorists, I think the US passport is probably among the worst to have. It would be very interesting to get some hard facts on this from international insurers or so that deal with these things. It's unclear to me whether that eigenvector's (fairly prevalent) opinion holds water outside Hollywood movies. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-06-04/u-s-ransom-policy-is-a-mistake https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-06-04/u-s-ranso...

kalleboo 10y ago

Are there any examples of this? Where Americans got rescued but people of another country were left behind? I only have vague recollections of articles of people complaining of the massive bills the US charges for rescue operations, and that Anthony Bourdain Beirut episode where the Americans were some of the last out, after such military powerhouses such as Sweden. Wouldn't a country like Luxembourg have an agreement with an ally? You have countries where the US has no diplomatic presence - e.g. the US doesn't have an embassy in North Korea, and Americans have to use the Swedish embassy if they need protection.

eigenvector 10y ago
One example would be the tepid responses of most governments to having ships flying their flag hijacked in the Gulf of Aden. The first time a US-flagged ship was hijacked, well, the result became a Tom Hanks movie because the US government responded with overwhelming military force. Pretty much any instance where the military has been sent in to rescue a country's nationals abroad is limited to the countries that have that kind of military capability, the ability to deploy it rapidly and the willingness to use it. Examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barras https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barras http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/9307833/How-the-British-hostages-were-rescued-in-Afghanistan.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/9... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_8969 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_8969 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Peacemaker_hostage_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Peacemaker_hostage_c... Is this to say that the US or UK will always rescue its citizens abroad? No. But there are types of rescues that only the US, UK, France, and maybe Russia are capable of mounting.
- FabHK 10y ago
  Israel has frequently evacuated its citizens, too (during Operation Solomon, they flew out 1122 pax in one B747!). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Moses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Moses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Solomon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Solomon

coldtea 10y ago

>the propensity of certain governments (mostly the US and UK) to undertake extreme measures to get their citizens out of trouble in foreign countries In Hollywood movies. In real life, from a lot of accounts I've read over the years, the local embassies/consulate/etc are not much help and not very eager to help either...

gaius 10y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_military_intervention_in_the_Sierra_Leone_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_military_intervention_... British Paras showed up to evacuate the city; most people decided to stay because now the city was secure...
Twirrim 10y ago
During the collapse of the communist regime in Albania, the US airforce was airlifting both US and UK citizens (and may be others, I only know about those two for certain) out of the country by helicopter. I know a British family of missionaries that were based out of Tirana who were evacuated that way.
vacri 10y ago
Military actions are the extreme end of it. Consulates can help in all sorts of ways, and the US is well-financed.
- _of 10y ago
  And you don't think that other countries have consulates and embassies that are willing to help their citizens?
  - vacri 10y ago
    Consular effort is not binary, but a continuum.

lumberjack 10y ago

>That's a feature Luxembourg doesn't offer. Yes they do. In small countries the situation is even more personal and usually the PM himself is involved every time a citizen is caught behind enemy lines. Happened quite a lot when the US started messing around with Gaddafi. Lots of Europeans working there were very reluctant to leave and then they returned there immediately after and had to be rescued again.

chrisseaton 10y ago
Do many small countries have the ability to project power like that in the first place? It's not the will to do it that is a problem - it's the infrastructure to generate a suitable force and put it on the ground that requires a very long tail of people, equipment and money on permanent standby, and of course you also need the expertise and experience to do it. If you're a citizen of somewhere like Luxembourg they just don't have the capability to reach across the world into somewhere like Syria and rescue you like the US or UK would attempt to.
- matt4077 10y ago
  I believe most of these situations get resolved diplomatically. That doesn't work with IS, but the vast majority of cases are criminal rather than terrorists, or the result of general instability. A country like Luxembourg can usually find someone who has their money in their banks and is in a position to resolve the situation. There's also quite a lot of European solidarity in such cases. Mass evacuations usually get several governments involved and they all contribute proportionally, or France sends a few planes and basks in the glory. Regarding military operations to solve such situations it seems to me as if it's a matter not just of capability but of willingness as well. Europeans tend to think 50 cents to the foreign ministry is a better investment than $1 to the military, and that approach carries over in crisis. Empirically, my impression is that military action has about a 33/33/33% rate of success/dead hostages/"we just scared a grandma and couldn't find any hostages". Diplomacy has a higher success rate but it can take years. That's the sort of trade-off I don't envy politicians for.

flavor8 10y ago

Watching episodes 3, 4 & 5 of Captive on Netflix may disabuse you if that notion. Sure, if you end up in a situation that's politically advantageous to get you out of, and/or your family has good connections or can market your case well, you may get some state assistance. But it's far from a sure thing.

kchoudhu 10y ago

I'm sure US citizens who have been trapped in Yemen for years without any assistance from their government will beg to differ. The USG's propensity to help its own citizens abroad is a function of local power politics and the ability of the petitioner to create waves in Washington. Tread carefully before getting into trouble abroad.

jernfrost 10y ago

That cuts many ways. The US and the UK has also been rather quick to ditch your citizenship and drone their own citizens to death abroad. Doesn't make their citizenship very dependable. Also with an American or UK passport you are more likely a target by baddies, and should there be a hostage situation you have the problem that the US typically don't negotiate. If being a US citizen was such an advantage, Americans wouldn't be traveling the world with Canadian flags sown onto their backpacks.

BeetleB 10y ago

Nor Canada. (Notorious for this) Nor US. (Didn't evacuate citizens) Pick any country you think does this well and I'll find examples where the country dropped the ball.

jmkni 10y ago

One of the odd upsides to being Northern Irish is that everybody here gets both a British and an Irish passport if they want one. With the Irish passport, you will have an easier time getting into and travelling between many countries, but if things go south, the UK passport may help in getting out of the Country. This will become more prominent after Brexit, as Northern Irish citizens will still be able to move and work freely throughout the EU with their Irish passport, whilst retaining the benefits of their British one (unless a United Ireland happens).

FabHK 10y ago

The US has a well-known policy of not paying ransom for kidnapped citizens abroad, and apparently doesn't even allow families to pay ransom [1]. Other governments huff and puff about it (nobody wants to encourage terrorist kidnappings), but by and large tend to bail out their citizens. Furthermore, if you get in trouble with terrorists, I think the US passport is probably among the worst to have. It would be very interesting to get some hard facts on this from international insurers or so that deal with these things. It's unclear to me whether that eigenvector's (fairly prevalent) opinion holds water outside Hollywood movies. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-06-04/u-s-ransom-policy-is-a-mistake https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-06-04/u-s-ranso...