4 ms·

minimum wage laws mean you are making enough to live. If you are making the minimum wage, and work 40 hours a week, that's $1,160 a month/$2,320 if they work 8

by vaksel 16y ago

minimum wage laws mean you are making enough to live. If you are making the minimum wage, and work 40 hours a week, that's $1,160 a month/$2,320 if they work 80 hours a week. Can someone really survive if they are being paid even less than that? Let's say you pay someone $5 an hour because someone is desperate they'll take any job...and they work 80 hours a week, that's only $1,600 a month. Can you survive on that? Yes some law margin businesses won't be operated, but that just means people won't have to work like slaves just to pay rent. So you would be fine with a 12 year old working in the coal mines? By law, anyone under 18 is not considered an adult. I guess by your logic, you'd have no problem with pedophilia, after all big bad law is stopping a 30 year old from banging a 12 year old.

mrkurt 16y ago
I find your pedophilia strawman to be completely and utterly distasteful.
paulgb 16y ago
The person who is willing to take the $5/hour job is willing to do so because he isn't able to get a $10/hour job. $1,160/month might be hard to live on, but it's easier than living on $0, which is the alternative forced on him by minimum wage laws.
lionhearted 16y ago
$13,900 per year ($1,160 per month) puts you in the top 15% of earners worldwide. You can absolutely live on that anywhere, including any city in the United States, including Tokyo, including Hong Kong, and so on. You'll be able to get a bed, a shared bathroom, and enough healthy food at that money. And of course, as soon as there's an opportunity to make more, you move on and do so. If you want to talk about high cost of living in the USA, I agree with you. Prices are artificially high in the USA for a number of reasons. If you removed just a few laws that aren't doing much good, a solid meal would probably cost around $1 to $2 - last time I was there, you could get a decent $2 meal in Taipei and a 2 euro meal in Berlin for instance. Prices in America are higher than they should be due to some corruption and stupidity, but even with the artificially high prices $14k is a heck of a lot of money by almost standard at almost any time in history. As for the rest of your comment, I don't think the practice of running immediately to extreme edge cases is the best way to have a discussion. I started with the point that a 20 year old should be able to intern at a company if they want to, and you want to move the discussion to coal mines and pedophilia? Edge cases are useful to discuss, but probably secondary in importance to general principles. If you agree that in general stopping mature, capable humans of doing voluntary transactions is a bad thing, then we can look at the edge cases and try to figure out some lines. But to answer your main point, absolutely $13,900 per year is a fantastically large amount of money that can be lived fairly well on. No Starbucks, no $12 movie tickets, but food, housing, and other necessities? Absolutely possible, that's a huge amount of money. I've lived on much less comfortably, and most of the world would kill to live on that $13,900 per year.
- vaksel 16y ago
  sure you can live on $13,900 a year in some third world hell hole, but in that third world hell hole, your $13,900 would actually be $2,900/yr. Sure a solid meal would cost only $1 to $2...all we need to remove is the part that doesn't allow companies to sell you contaminated beef, or the part that states that a company needs to state nutritional information on the back of the package. You can't compare a salary, without taking cost of living into the equation. Ok let's take that $1,160 a month..and cut off a 1/3 for taxes, unemlpoyment insurance, social security etc. You are stuck with $765 a month. Please tell me how you'd live on $765 a month. And remember to live, you need to pay rent, pay for utilities, pay for food, pay for gas/bus tickets. Sure you lived on less than that...but I bet at the time, you stayed with your mommy and daddy...or you lived on campus where your loans or once again mommy and daddy paid for rent. Yes most of the world would kill to live on $13,900 a year....but most of the world, doesn't have the same high cost of living as we do in US.
  - lionhearted 16y ago
    I'll answer this comment, but before I do, can I ask a question? - What's your goal behind this discussion? Are you trying to learn, debate, convince me, convince other people, just pass the time? I posted originally to share my perspective with people, and then I try to respond to comments and inquiries to get a good discussion going. Because I can answer your comment seriously if you're open-minded and think there's a chance your views will evolve. Likewise, I'm open to my views evolving if I see something good. Otherwise, if it's for third parties or just entertainment, I'll probably break from this comment thread since I've said the basics of what I think and probably not so many people are following it any more. Anyways... > Ok let's take that $1,160 a month..and cut off a 1/3 for taxes, unemlpoyment insurance, social security etc. You are stuck with $765 a month. Well, three points. First, you pay a bit less than that in taxes at the low end. Second, I already said I'm not in favor of this kind of forced law and I'm not in favor of an income tax, uninsurance, or social security at all. Third, if you are paying taxes that high, you're probably funding benefits that you can get. So you're either living on $765 after taxes but then you get government benefits, or most of $1160 with lower taxes. But let's say that's roughly a wash and your real pay in cash and/or benefits is $1000 per month. I did a quick search in the Chicago Craigslist just to pick a random big city. There's quite a few roommates/shared bedrooms in the $400 to $500 per month range. If you look, I'm sure you can find cheaper. I was in Hong Kong two months ago. You can pay $15/night for very small private room/shared bathroom in a cheap place on Kowloon. An all you can ride train pass is between $70 and $120 in most large cities. So we're at $500 now for rent and transport in a city. You can eat oatmeal and rice and beans as your staples, then mix in a little tuna fish, chicken, and fruit and vegetables. Oatmeal and rice beans are so cheap they're basically free, you're looking at $20 to $30 the entire month total for 60 meals. Go crazy and say $5 worth of protein, fruits, and vegetables per day and your food budget is $170. You drink tap water which is almost free, instant coffee will run you $10 to $20 for the month. So that's under $200. If you cook with people, you can eat better food for the same prices. Buy whatever's on sale for meal, fruit, and vegetables, in Los Angeles last year I was sometimes able to get a medium sized pack of Strawberries for $2 at Ralph's when they'd shipped too many. Really, anyone who doesn't think $1000/month is livable in the USA has been incredibly blessed. Plenty of immigrants and people working their way up live on much less. You share space with multiple people, maybe you only get 1/4th of a large bedroom with three other roommates and share one bathroom and a small kitchen. You cook most of your meals and don't eat out much. You take public transit, walk, or a bicycle. It's not glamorous, it's not awesome, it's not fun, but it's doable. And again, the goal isn't to stay in a low wage job forever, we're doing all this math with a 40 hour work week, which is plenty of time to look for other opportunities, train yourself, etc. As for me when I lived poor - I dropped out of high school and left home at 16, and never took a dime in cash from my parents since leaving home. Not a single dime. So the mommy and daddy comment isn't quite accurate. Ah, I was about to share a story about what life was like back then, but it'd take a while to type. It's not awesome, but you survive, grow, do what you can to improve, and you make it. But I'll ask if you don't mind answering: what's your objective here? Are you open to changing your mind on this if I give reasonable, well thought answers to your questions? I don't mind spending the time on this if something positive could come of it.
mwerty 16y ago
How about this logic: Consenting adults should be free to offer and enter into any contract that does violate anyone's freedom's, rights etc.

by vaksel 16y ago

mrkurt 16y ago

I find your pedophilia strawman to be completely and utterly distasteful.

paulgb 16y ago

The person who is willing to take the $5/hour job is willing to do so because he isn't able to get a $10/hour job. $1,160/month might be hard to live on, but it's easier than living on $0, which is the alternative forced on him by minimum wage laws.

lionhearted 16y ago

$13,900 per year ($1,160 per month) puts you in the top 15% of earners worldwide. You can absolutely live on that anywhere, including any city in the United States, including Tokyo, including Hong Kong, and so on. You'll be able to get a bed, a shared bathroom, and enough healthy food at that money. And of course, as soon as there's an opportunity to make more, you move on and do so. If you want to talk about high cost of living in the USA, I agree with you. Prices are artificially high in the USA for a number of reasons. If you removed just a few laws that aren't doing much good, a solid meal would probably cost around $1 to $2 - last time I was there, you could get a decent $2 meal in Taipei and a 2 euro meal in Berlin for instance. Prices in America are higher than they should be due to some corruption and stupidity, but even with the artificially high prices $14k is a heck of a lot of money by almost standard at almost any time in history. As for the rest of your comment, I don't think the practice of running immediately to extreme edge cases is the best way to have a discussion. I started with the point that a 20 year old should be able to intern at a company if they want to, and you want to move the discussion to coal mines and pedophilia? Edge cases are useful to discuss, but probably secondary in importance to general principles. If you agree that in general stopping mature, capable humans of doing voluntary transactions is a bad thing, then we can look at the edge cases and try to figure out some lines. But to answer your main point, absolutely $13,900 per year is a fantastically large amount of money that can be lived fairly well on. No Starbucks, no $12 movie tickets, but food, housing, and other necessities? Absolutely possible, that's a huge amount of money. I've lived on much less comfortably, and most of the world would kill to live on that $13,900 per year.

vaksel 16y ago
sure you can live on $13,900 a year in some third world hell hole, but in that third world hell hole, your $13,900 would actually be $2,900/yr. Sure a solid meal would cost only $1 to $2...all we need to remove is the part that doesn't allow companies to sell you contaminated beef, or the part that states that a company needs to state nutritional information on the back of the package. You can't compare a salary, without taking cost of living into the equation. Ok let's take that $1,160 a month..and cut off a 1/3 for taxes, unemlpoyment insurance, social security etc. You are stuck with $765 a month. Please tell me how you'd live on $765 a month. And remember to live, you need to pay rent, pay for utilities, pay for food, pay for gas/bus tickets. Sure you lived on less than that...but I bet at the time, you stayed with your mommy and daddy...or you lived on campus where your loans or once again mommy and daddy paid for rent. Yes most of the world would kill to live on $13,900 a year....but most of the world, doesn't have the same high cost of living as we do in US.
- lionhearted 16y ago
  I'll answer this comment, but before I do, can I ask a question? - What's your goal behind this discussion? Are you trying to learn, debate, convince me, convince other people, just pass the time? I posted originally to share my perspective with people, and then I try to respond to comments and inquiries to get a good discussion going. Because I can answer your comment seriously if you're open-minded and think there's a chance your views will evolve. Likewise, I'm open to my views evolving if I see something good. Otherwise, if it's for third parties or just entertainment, I'll probably break from this comment thread since I've said the basics of what I think and probably not so many people are following it any more. Anyways... > Ok let's take that $1,160 a month..and cut off a 1/3 for taxes, unemlpoyment insurance, social security etc. You are stuck with $765 a month. Well, three points. First, you pay a bit less than that in taxes at the low end. Second, I already said I'm not in favor of this kind of forced law and I'm not in favor of an income tax, uninsurance, or social security at all. Third, if you are paying taxes that high, you're probably funding benefits that you can get. So you're either living on $765 after taxes but then you get government benefits, or most of $1160 with lower taxes. But let's say that's roughly a wash and your real pay in cash and/or benefits is $1000 per month. I did a quick search in the Chicago Craigslist just to pick a random big city. There's quite a few roommates/shared bedrooms in the $400 to $500 per month range. If you look, I'm sure you can find cheaper. I was in Hong Kong two months ago. You can pay $15/night for very small private room/shared bathroom in a cheap place on Kowloon. An all you can ride train pass is between $70 and $120 in most large cities. So we're at $500 now for rent and transport in a city. You can eat oatmeal and rice and beans as your staples, then mix in a little tuna fish, chicken, and fruit and vegetables. Oatmeal and rice beans are so cheap they're basically free, you're looking at $20 to $30 the entire month total for 60 meals. Go crazy and say $5 worth of protein, fruits, and vegetables per day and your food budget is $170. You drink tap water which is almost free, instant coffee will run you $10 to $20 for the month. So that's under $200. If you cook with people, you can eat better food for the same prices. Buy whatever's on sale for meal, fruit, and vegetables, in Los Angeles last year I was sometimes able to get a medium sized pack of Strawberries for $2 at Ralph's when they'd shipped too many. Really, anyone who doesn't think $1000/month is livable in the USA has been incredibly blessed. Plenty of immigrants and people working their way up live on much less. You share space with multiple people, maybe you only get 1/4th of a large bedroom with three other roommates and share one bathroom and a small kitchen. You cook most of your meals and don't eat out much. You take public transit, walk, or a bicycle. It's not glamorous, it's not awesome, it's not fun, but it's doable. And again, the goal isn't to stay in a low wage job forever, we're doing all this math with a 40 hour work week, which is plenty of time to look for other opportunities, train yourself, etc. As for me when I lived poor - I dropped out of high school and left home at 16, and never took a dime in cash from my parents since leaving home. Not a single dime. So the mommy and daddy comment isn't quite accurate. Ah, I was about to share a story about what life was like back then, but it'd take a while to type. It's not awesome, but you survive, grow, do what you can to improve, and you make it. But I'll ask if you don't mind answering: what's your objective here? Are you open to changing your mind on this if I give reasonable, well thought answers to your questions? I don't mind spending the time on this if something positive could come of it.

mwerty 16y ago

How about this logic: Consenting adults should be free to offer and enter into any contract that does violate anyone's freedom's, rights etc.