4 ms·

17 trillion in debt, time to cut back

by bobmno 10y ago

Analemma_ 10y ago
Have you actually read the White House's plan? They themselves (I'm not strawmanning here) have said that overall spending and the debt is going to increase, most of that going to the military. No "cutting back" is happening.
krapp 10y ago
Yes, we need to make room for the the trillions of dollars in new spending Trump has already proposed. And statues. Many, many statues, wrought from American steel.
dashundchen 10y ago
Not sure if you're sarcastic or trolling . Cut back on by far the largest and most expensive military in the world then. NOAA budget 2016: $5.8 billion US military budget: $600 billion And they're proposing a $54 billion increase. You could probably trim 10 NOAAs from the military industrial complex and nothing would be lost.
- derefr 10y ago
  With the proviso that US military support and materiel has been used as trade goods for alliance-making with other countries for most of the last century. A large portion of the US military budget is "being the substitute military for US allies." The key question of decreasing US government spending is how to get other countries to pony up for the "renting" of the US military forces that they're already doing (because the alternative is that the US withdraws military support from those countries—and then those countries build back up their own militaries. Which, undoubtedly, would put us in a very different world than the one we're in right now...)
  - ra1n85 10y ago
    I think this is a good point, and I'm not sure why it's been downvoted. It's important to consider the sometimes positive externalities of the current levels of defense spending. Even more so, it's important to consider where we or others have come to rely on those positive externalities. For example, I'd be perfectly happy with the US withdrawing from many parts of the world and closing foreign bases. However, I do imagine there would be sometimes not so subtle consequences to doing so. Is the current balance of global power sufficient to prevent large scale and disastrous conflict? Do we risk tipping that balancing in one direction at some point?
    - yestoallthat 10y ago
      Does the US lending both hands to fucking up the Middle East make anything more stable? What stability was achieved by Vietnam, or all that stuff in South America? Not disastrous enough for you? Would you swap with even just ONE of the millions of people affected by some of the more insane atrocities this knight in shining armor committed? Thought so. Another fact that is generally completely omitted is that best, soldiers defend against other soldiers (and in practice, they kill a lot of civilians because war is tough), so in a way those people justifying war machineries in other countries are not the excuse, they are the counterparts. It's an axis of sociopaths and conformists against humans, and this rift goes through all nations, even some families. The root causes for these rationalizations matter, not so much the rationalizations, those always shift. A child kicking a dog and Abu Ghraib differ in scale but not principle, as does looking on to either. Those onlookers love to use "we", but there is no "we" here, speak strictly for yourself.
      - ra1n85 10y ago
        Not seeing what you're trying to argue. Lots of appeal to emotion here. I'll make it simple for you: 1. Me: High levels of defense spending has easily identifiable consequences. But we need to be careful that we also take time to identify the positives and consider them. 2. You: The US has done bad things in the past and war is bad. I don't disagree with you, but you're not rebutting my point.
  - rgbrenner 10y ago
    You should take a look at world military budgets... actually look at the countries that are spending the money. $1.7T/year in total military spending worldwide. China at 200B, Russia at 70B. Iran? 22nd largest military budget at $10B. The rest of the big spenders are our friends and allies. I'm not going to count up every country, but roughly 1.3T to 1.4T is spent by the US + allies + friendly countries. Who are we preparing for war with?
    - tremon 10y ago
      Who are we preparing for war with? Our own citizens, of course.
    - makomk 10y ago
      One of the scenarios that concern the EU is Russia invading and occupying EU states before Nato or the US can respond, present them with a kind of fait accompi and hoping the political will to respond won't be there. So the US needs the ability to convincingly be able to take on entrenched Russian occupation of multiple other countries and take them back.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
  - gpawl 10y ago
    The US Military leadership has publicly lobbied against raising military spending at the expense of other government activities. They know that national security depends on a comprehensive international relations investments. The White House is pandering to their populist base and contravening the advice of their own military experts
bitJericho 10y ago
The military is 60 percent of the budget.
- ra1n85 10y ago
  It's not. Defense comes in at 15% of federal spending. Social security and medicare combined come in at 4x that amount. Source:http://federal-budget.insidegov.com/l/120/2017-Estimate http://federal-budget.insidegov.com/l/120/2017-Estimate
  - nickthemagicman 10y ago
    Better link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expenditures_in_the_United_States_federal_budget#/media/File:U.S._Federal_Spending.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expenditures_in_the_United_Sta...
  - findateamfirst 10y ago
    Those are non discretionary and funded by totally separate channels.
    - ra1n85 10y ago
      And? Mandatory spending is more than twice that of discretionary. Of discretionary, defense makes up less than 50%.
      - spott 10y ago
        I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers: care to elaborate? This[0] directly contradicts you: https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/ https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-bud...
        ra1n85 10y ago
        Here: http://federal-budget.insidegov.com/l/120/2017-Estimate http://federal-budget.insidegov.com/l/120/2017-Estimate Mandatory: 2.56T Discretionary: 1.08T

17 trillion in debt, time to cut back

by bobmno 10y ago

17 trillion in debt, time to cut back

Have you actually read the White House's plan? They themselves (I'm not strawmanning here) have said that overall spending and the debt is going to increase, most of that going to the military. No "cutting back" is happening.

krapp 10y ago

Yes, we need to make room for the the trillions of dollars in new spending Trump has already proposed. And statues. Many, many statues, wrought from American steel.

dashundchen 10y ago

Not sure if you're sarcastic or trolling . Cut back on by far the largest and most expensive military in the world then. NOAA budget 2016: $5.8 billion US military budget: $600 billion And they're proposing a $54 billion increase. You could probably trim 10 NOAAs from the military industrial complex and nothing would be lost.

derefr 10y ago
With the proviso that US military support and materiel has been used as trade goods for alliance-making with other countries for most of the last century. A large portion of the US military budget is "being the substitute military for US allies." The key question of decreasing US government spending is how to get other countries to pony up for the "renting" of the US military forces that they're already doing (because the alternative is that the US withdraws military support from those countries—and then those countries build back up their own militaries. Which, undoubtedly, would put us in a very different world than the one we're in right now...)
- ra1n85 10y ago
  I think this is a good point, and I'm not sure why it's been downvoted. It's important to consider the sometimes positive externalities of the current levels of defense spending. Even more so, it's important to consider where we or others have come to rely on those positive externalities. For example, I'd be perfectly happy with the US withdrawing from many parts of the world and closing foreign bases. However, I do imagine there would be sometimes not so subtle consequences to doing so. Is the current balance of global power sufficient to prevent large scale and disastrous conflict? Do we risk tipping that balancing in one direction at some point?
  - yestoallthat 10y ago
    Does the US lending both hands to fucking up the Middle East make anything more stable? What stability was achieved by Vietnam, or all that stuff in South America? Not disastrous enough for you? Would you swap with even just ONE of the millions of people affected by some of the more insane atrocities this knight in shining armor committed? Thought so. Another fact that is generally completely omitted is that best, soldiers defend against other soldiers (and in practice, they kill a lot of civilians because war is tough), so in a way those people justifying war machineries in other countries are not the excuse, they are the counterparts. It's an axis of sociopaths and conformists against humans, and this rift goes through all nations, even some families. The root causes for these rationalizations matter, not so much the rationalizations, those always shift. A child kicking a dog and Abu Ghraib differ in scale but not principle, as does looking on to either. Those onlookers love to use "we", but there is no "we" here, speak strictly for yourself.
    - ra1n85 10y ago
      Not seeing what you're trying to argue. Lots of appeal to emotion here. I'll make it simple for you: 1. Me: High levels of defense spending has easily identifiable consequences. But we need to be careful that we also take time to identify the positives and consider them. 2. You: The US has done bad things in the past and war is bad. I don't disagree with you, but you're not rebutting my point.
- rgbrenner 10y ago
  You should take a look at world military budgets... actually look at the countries that are spending the money. $1.7T/year in total military spending worldwide. China at 200B, Russia at 70B. Iran? 22nd largest military budget at $10B. The rest of the big spenders are our friends and allies. I'm not going to count up every country, but roughly 1.3T to 1.4T is spent by the US + allies + friendly countries. Who are we preparing for war with?
  - tremon 10y ago
    Who are we preparing for war with? Our own citizens, of course.
  - makomk 10y ago
    One of the scenarios that concern the EU is Russia invading and occupying EU states before Nato or the US can respond, present them with a kind of fait accompi and hoping the political will to respond won't be there. So the US needs the ability to convincingly be able to take on entrenched Russian occupation of multiple other countries and take them back.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
- gpawl 10y ago
  The US Military leadership has publicly lobbied against raising military spending at the expense of other government activities. They know that national security depends on a comprehensive international relations investments. The White House is pandering to their populist base and contravening the advice of their own military experts

bitJericho 10y ago

The military is 60 percent of the budget.

ra1n85 10y ago
It's not. Defense comes in at 15% of federal spending. Social security and medicare combined come in at 4x that amount. Source:http://federal-budget.insidegov.com/l/120/2017-Estimate http://federal-budget.insidegov.com/l/120/2017-Estimate
- nickthemagicman 10y ago
  Better link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expenditures_in_the_United_States_federal_budget#/media/File:U.S._Federal_Spending.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expenditures_in_the_United_Sta...
- findateamfirst 10y ago
  Those are non discretionary and funded by totally separate channels.
  - ra1n85 10y ago
    And? Mandatory spending is more than twice that of discretionary. Of discretionary, defense makes up less than 50%.
    - spott 10y ago
      I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers: care to elaborate? This[0] directly contradicts you: https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/ https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-bud...
      - ra1n85 10y ago
        Here: http://federal-budget.insidegov.com/l/120/2017-Estimate http://federal-budget.insidegov.com/l/120/2017-Estimate Mandatory: 2.56T Discretionary: 1.08T