9 ms·

Just playing devil's advocate can someone articulate what kind of value we will lose as a society?

by coss 10y ago

crftr 10y ago
NOAA's Office of Response and Restoration[1] provides scientific support for oil spills, chemical accidents, and other emergencies in coastal areas. Though if we want to talk numbers, here's one: $18.7 billion. NOAA legal assisted DoJ (and others) with BP's Deepwater Horizon civil settlement.[2] [1] http://response.restoration.noaa.gov/about http://response.restoration.noaa.gov/about [2] http://response.restoration.noaa.gov/about/media/agreement-principle-bp-settle-civil-claims-deepwater-horizon-oil-spill.html http://response.restoration.noaa.gov/about/media/agreement-p...
deelowe 10y ago
NOAA plays a critical role in monitoring and predicting weather and sea patterns.
aerovistae 10y ago
Lol....hurricane prediction?
Analemma_ 10y ago
Multiple sectors of the economy, especially agriculture, rely critically on accurate weather forecasting, which is provided by NOAA.
65827 10y ago
If you read the article you will see it involves cuts to measurement areas like satellites and temperature monitoring, which will make weather and climate science shittier for everyone.
- techman9 10y ago
  Just to extend this. Climate science may seem like an abstract and alarmist thing now, but as the earth warms the human cost of all this will become much more pronounced, and without accurate science and monitoring, we're pretty much totally fucked.
ajmurmann 10y ago
"[...]eliminate funding for a variety of smaller programs, including external research, coastal management, estuary reserves and “coastal resilience,” which seeks to bolster the ability of coastal areas to withstand major storms and rising seas."
bronco21016 10y ago
Every single commercial airline flight in the US relies on NOAA forecasting. Without reliable forecasting I would suspect the airline industry would crumble under delays, wasted fuel, diversions, and overall customer dissatisfaction. This isn't to say a third party couldn't pick up the slack but then you have a very clear conflict of interest. If the airlines get to make their own forecast they can skimp on fuel and push pilots to fly into weather that they magically deem legal. The margins of safety are significantly higher with an unbiased third party.
- someguydave 10y ago
  >airline flight in the US relies on NOAA forecasting Sure but is that what is actually going to be cut? You do realize that one common way that unelected bureaucrats defend their spending is to launder unpopular/dubious spending in very popular spending?
  - seanp2k2 10y ago
    Is there any evidence at all that this happens with NOAA? If not, why suggest it?
    - someguydave 10y ago
      Sure, here's some evidence of dubious spending: "And that shared mindset is frustration. Senator Mikulski was quoted by E&E Publishing’s ClimateWire as saying “We have said time and time and time and again to NOAA, ‘Get your act together’”… “Continual cost overruns are eating up NOAA’s budget, and quite frankly, eating up the budget and goodwill of this committee.” Note that Sen. Mikulski is a liberal from Maryland, where NOAA headquarters is. http://www.livingontherealworld.org/?p=633 http://www.livingontherealworld.org/?p=633
  - mikeash 10y ago
    The satellite data division would lose almost a quarter of its funding. Satellite data is highly important in creating accurate forecasts. I imagine the target is climate change data, but climate change and weather forecasting start with the same sorts of raw data, so I don't think you can hit one without the other in this case.
pjmorris 10y ago
Can you see numbers being put on maritime vessels? Human life? Hurricane prediction matters to both. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantome_(schooner) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantome_(schooner)
mbroncano 10y ago
Off the top of my head, comercial and general aviation rely critically on NOAA's services.
peckrob 10y ago
I live in Dixie Alley [0], a place prone to incredibly violent tornadoes. The National Weather Service, part on NOAA, has saved many lives here. If you follow along on a weather enthusiast forum like TalkWeather [1], you'll see just some of the protection that NWS provides us. The prediction and modeling alone are amazing. The thought of not having those people looking out for me is terrifying. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Alley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Alley [1] http://talkweather.com/index.php http://talkweather.com/index.php
- exclusiv 10y ago
  Is it the federal governments job to invest in protecting people that knowingly live in dangerous areas though? Not saying you shouldn't live there, but if you have a known risk and your local government and citizens cannot manage that risk - why should other citizens across the country pay for that? I understand those services were being delivered and now there might be a gap which is worrisome, but can it be solved at the state level? Or perhaps a coalition of states in the area? Is the NWS the only capable source of safety related weather information?
  - 1_2__3 10y ago
    Did you ask for an example for honest debate, or to have a straw man you could pick apart? Because it seems like it's the latter. You're arguing his example and ignoring the larger point (likely intentionally).
    - exclusiv 10y ago
      Honest. I was pretty clear that I think it's a state issue but was interested in hearing whether it's feasible for the states to handle. If it isn't, then I could see that being a valid justification as a federal investment which is undergoing cuts that may affect the service.
      - rabidrat 10y ago
        Every state has weather that can be devastating; also weather does not usually confine itself to state boundaries.
GabrielF00 10y ago
I was talking to someone who worked as an engineer for NASA for decades. He said the work he was proudest of was on the GOES satellites, because they save lives every year by providing data on extreme weather. It looks like weather satellite operations are going to be hardest hit by these cuts.
- Aaronn 10y ago
  Yep, these satellites are very important to weather forcasting. The GOES-R (now GOES-16) satellite launched recently, here are a couple of videos taken by it over the last few days: https://twitter.com/wxlada/status/837417069423513601 https://twitter.com/wxlada/status/837417069423513601 https://twitter.com/wxbrad/status/837508892611465216 https://twitter.com/wxbrad/status/837508892611465216 and a full disk picture: https://twitter.com/NOAASatellites/status/835240421647347713 https://twitter.com/NOAASatellites/status/835240421647347713
dragonwriter 10y ago
Weather predictions rely on satellite data, and those predictions underlie warnings and watches for both direct weather hazards (high wind, tornado, etc., warnings) and hazardous consequences of weather (flood/flash flood warnings, etc.) These, in turn, enable people to take informed actions to protect lives, property, and economic assets.

Just playing devil's advocate can someone articulate what kind of value we will lose as a society?

by coss 10y ago

Just playing devil's advocate can someone articulate what kind of value we will lose as a society?

crftr 10y ago

NOAA's Office of Response and Restoration[1] provides scientific support for oil spills, chemical accidents, and other emergencies in coastal areas. Though if we want to talk numbers, here's one: $18.7 billion. NOAA legal assisted DoJ (and others) with BP's Deepwater Horizon civil settlement.[2] [1] http://response.restoration.noaa.gov/about http://response.restoration.noaa.gov/about [2] http://response.restoration.noaa.gov/about/media/agreement-principle-bp-settle-civil-claims-deepwater-horizon-oil-spill.html http://response.restoration.noaa.gov/about/media/agreement-p...

deelowe 10y ago

NOAA plays a critical role in monitoring and predicting weather and sea patterns.

aerovistae 10y ago

Lol....hurricane prediction?

Analemma_ 10y ago

Multiple sectors of the economy, especially agriculture, rely critically on accurate weather forecasting, which is provided by NOAA.

65827 10y ago

If you read the article you will see it involves cuts to measurement areas like satellites and temperature monitoring, which will make weather and climate science shittier for everyone.

techman9 10y ago
Just to extend this. Climate science may seem like an abstract and alarmist thing now, but as the earth warms the human cost of all this will become much more pronounced, and without accurate science and monitoring, we're pretty much totally fucked.

ajmurmann 10y ago

"[...]eliminate funding for a variety of smaller programs, including external research, coastal management, estuary reserves and “coastal resilience,” which seeks to bolster the ability of coastal areas to withstand major storms and rising seas."

bronco21016 10y ago

Every single commercial airline flight in the US relies on NOAA forecasting. Without reliable forecasting I would suspect the airline industry would crumble under delays, wasted fuel, diversions, and overall customer dissatisfaction. This isn't to say a third party couldn't pick up the slack but then you have a very clear conflict of interest. If the airlines get to make their own forecast they can skimp on fuel and push pilots to fly into weather that they magically deem legal. The margins of safety are significantly higher with an unbiased third party.

someguydave 10y ago
>airline flight in the US relies on NOAA forecasting Sure but is that what is actually going to be cut? You do realize that one common way that unelected bureaucrats defend their spending is to launder unpopular/dubious spending in very popular spending?
- seanp2k2 10y ago
  Is there any evidence at all that this happens with NOAA? If not, why suggest it?
  - someguydave 10y ago
    Sure, here's some evidence of dubious spending: "And that shared mindset is frustration. Senator Mikulski was quoted by E&E Publishing’s ClimateWire as saying “We have said time and time and time and again to NOAA, ‘Get your act together’”… “Continual cost overruns are eating up NOAA’s budget, and quite frankly, eating up the budget and goodwill of this committee.” Note that Sen. Mikulski is a liberal from Maryland, where NOAA headquarters is. http://www.livingontherealworld.org/?p=633 http://www.livingontherealworld.org/?p=633
- mikeash 10y ago
  The satellite data division would lose almost a quarter of its funding. Satellite data is highly important in creating accurate forecasts. I imagine the target is climate change data, but climate change and weather forecasting start with the same sorts of raw data, so I don't think you can hit one without the other in this case.

pjmorris 10y ago

Can you see numbers being put on maritime vessels? Human life? Hurricane prediction matters to both. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantome_(schooner) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantome_(schooner)

mbroncano 10y ago

Off the top of my head, comercial and general aviation rely critically on NOAA's services.

peckrob 10y ago

I live in Dixie Alley [0], a place prone to incredibly violent tornadoes. The National Weather Service, part on NOAA, has saved many lives here. If you follow along on a weather enthusiast forum like TalkWeather [1], you'll see just some of the protection that NWS provides us. The prediction and modeling alone are amazing. The thought of not having those people looking out for me is terrifying. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Alley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Alley [1] http://talkweather.com/index.php http://talkweather.com/index.php

exclusiv 10y ago
Is it the federal governments job to invest in protecting people that knowingly live in dangerous areas though? Not saying you shouldn't live there, but if you have a known risk and your local government and citizens cannot manage that risk - why should other citizens across the country pay for that? I understand those services were being delivered and now there might be a gap which is worrisome, but can it be solved at the state level? Or perhaps a coalition of states in the area? Is the NWS the only capable source of safety related weather information?
- 1_2__3 10y ago
  Did you ask for an example for honest debate, or to have a straw man you could pick apart? Because it seems like it's the latter. You're arguing his example and ignoring the larger point (likely intentionally).
  - exclusiv 10y ago
    Honest. I was pretty clear that I think it's a state issue but was interested in hearing whether it's feasible for the states to handle. If it isn't, then I could see that being a valid justification as a federal investment which is undergoing cuts that may affect the service.
    - rabidrat 10y ago
      Every state has weather that can be devastating; also weather does not usually confine itself to state boundaries.

GabrielF00 10y ago

I was talking to someone who worked as an engineer for NASA for decades. He said the work he was proudest of was on the GOES satellites, because they save lives every year by providing data on extreme weather. It looks like weather satellite operations are going to be hardest hit by these cuts.

Aaronn 10y ago
Yep, these satellites are very important to weather forcasting. The GOES-R (now GOES-16) satellite launched recently, here are a couple of videos taken by it over the last few days: https://twitter.com/wxlada/status/837417069423513601 https://twitter.com/wxlada/status/837417069423513601 https://twitter.com/wxbrad/status/837508892611465216 https://twitter.com/wxbrad/status/837508892611465216 and a full disk picture: https://twitter.com/NOAASatellites/status/835240421647347713 https://twitter.com/NOAASatellites/status/835240421647347713

dragonwriter 10y ago

Weather predictions rely on satellite data, and those predictions underlie warnings and watches for both direct weather hazards (high wind, tornado, etc., warnings) and hazardous consequences of weather (flood/flash flood warnings, etc.) These, in turn, enable people to take informed actions to protect lives, property, and economic assets.