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The insanity of the immigration debate is the amount of jobs that will be lost to automation, consolidation and decreased domestic investment. The wage gains an

by rrggrr 10y ago

The insanity of the immigration debate is the amount of jobs that will be lost to automation, consolidation and decreased domestic investment. The wage gains and skill gaps that will result from decreased immigration (legal or illegal) are going to force companies to alternatives. Yes, wages will rise. Yes, there will be investment in retraining and rehabilitation of un(under)employed. It will not be enough. Its popular with Trump's base, and I support some of Trump's policies. It may even prove to be a price worth paying for a short time. Long run its pure stupidity.

nojvek 10y ago
There's always the opportunity cost. What if the next Steve Jobs, Sergey, page or any number of immigrants who started successful companies don't come to US but go somewhere else. Making the world scared of coming to US can have irreversible effects.
- ejanus 10y ago
  The is a weak argument. Nobody holds the spirit of capitalism.... People already in the US are jobless...so the state has to get them back to work. I am not a US citizen, but I feel sorry for poor and jobless Americans.
- briandear 10y ago
  Steve Jobs wasn't an immigrant. Using Steve Jobs as some kind of H1B argument is silly. This is a false equivalency. H1 visas are not about importing the next Sergey; the vast, vast majority are about filling skilled jobs at lower wages than the current supply of workers in the US would support. Some world renowned robotics or AI engineer doesn't need an H1, s/he can apply for an EB visa. H1 visa restrictions aren't 'harming' anyone except companies that want to pay less than the US market currently would support. The evidence is the firing of employees at San Francisco State University in order to outsource the work to cheaper foreign labor. In San Fran State's case, there isn't a shortage -- they actually fired qualified experienced people. Thus the 'solving shortages' argument is practically bullshit. The 'shortage' exists when the desired wage is lower than the supply of those willing to work for that wage. Pretending that H1 is going to bring in the next Sergey et al -- that's just hyperbolic nonsense not supported by the statistics. The next Sergey isn't coming in on an H1 with Infosys -- ultra improbable. The EB-1 visa is designed for the future Sergeys and it's an entirely different category than H1s. Then there is the EB-2 for the highly educated and are employment based. Finally there is the EB-3 for highly skilled immigrants. H1b visas are for TEMPORARY, NON-Immigrant, workers in a specialty occupation. Considering this is Hacker News, it suprising how immigration and H1 seem to be conflated almost every time H1 is discussed. If people want to immigrate to the US, an EB is the appropriate visa for highly skilled workers. Those using the H1 as a backdoor to a green card are essentially committing fraud if their intent when getting the H1 is to ultimately qualify for permanent residency. I would argue that an H1 should never be granted residency but instead an appropriate EB visa applied for instead.
  - literallycancer 10y ago
    The EB-1 requires that the person is already successful. But why would such a person come to the US? There are better places to live, once you have enough money.
    - ejanus 10y ago
      Borland, Musk, and a host of others moved in as successful people.
  - thro1237 10y ago
    So much misinformation. H1 is a dual intent visa. So, it is okay to have immigration intent (intent to eventually get a permanent residency) when applying for a H1-B and it is not fraud. There is no way to permanently reside in the US using H1-B visa. Almost everyone will get a green card eventually using EB visas.
  - pvelagal 10y ago
    Even EB-1 (Green Card -applicants) folks, typically Phd-s, first apply for H1B. Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft - every fortune 100 company - all apply for H1Bs. It is just that Indian & US based IT service companies - TCS, InfoSys, Wipro, Cognizant (US) apply for more. Green Cards (EB-1, EB-2,EB-3) are for permanent residency. H1B is temporary work visa valid only for 6 years.

by rrggrr 10y ago

nojvek 10y ago

There's always the opportunity cost. What if the next Steve Jobs, Sergey, page or any number of immigrants who started successful companies don't come to US but go somewhere else. Making the world scared of coming to US can have irreversible effects.

ejanus 10y ago
The is a weak argument. Nobody holds the spirit of capitalism.... People already in the US are jobless...so the state has to get them back to work. I am not a US citizen, but I feel sorry for poor and jobless Americans.
briandear 10y ago
Steve Jobs wasn't an immigrant. Using Steve Jobs as some kind of H1B argument is silly. This is a false equivalency. H1 visas are not about importing the next Sergey; the vast, vast majority are about filling skilled jobs at lower wages than the current supply of workers in the US would support. Some world renowned robotics or AI engineer doesn't need an H1, s/he can apply for an EB visa. H1 visa restrictions aren't 'harming' anyone except companies that want to pay less than the US market currently would support. The evidence is the firing of employees at San Francisco State University in order to outsource the work to cheaper foreign labor. In San Fran State's case, there isn't a shortage -- they actually fired qualified experienced people. Thus the 'solving shortages' argument is practically bullshit. The 'shortage' exists when the desired wage is lower than the supply of those willing to work for that wage. Pretending that H1 is going to bring in the next Sergey et al -- that's just hyperbolic nonsense not supported by the statistics. The next Sergey isn't coming in on an H1 with Infosys -- ultra improbable. The EB-1 visa is designed for the future Sergeys and it's an entirely different category than H1s. Then there is the EB-2 for the highly educated and are employment based. Finally there is the EB-3 for highly skilled immigrants. H1b visas are for TEMPORARY, NON-Immigrant, workers in a specialty occupation. Considering this is Hacker News, it suprising how immigration and H1 seem to be conflated almost every time H1 is discussed. If people want to immigrate to the US, an EB is the appropriate visa for highly skilled workers. Those using the H1 as a backdoor to a green card are essentially committing fraud if their intent when getting the H1 is to ultimately qualify for permanent residency. I would argue that an H1 should never be granted residency but instead an appropriate EB visa applied for instead.
- literallycancer 10y ago
  The EB-1 requires that the person is already successful. But why would such a person come to the US? There are better places to live, once you have enough money.
  - ejanus 10y ago
    Borland, Musk, and a host of others moved in as successful people.
- thro1237 10y ago
  So much misinformation. H1 is a dual intent visa. So, it is okay to have immigration intent (intent to eventually get a permanent residency) when applying for a H1-B and it is not fraud. There is no way to permanently reside in the US using H1-B visa. Almost everyone will get a green card eventually using EB visas.
- pvelagal 10y ago
  Even EB-1 (Green Card -applicants) folks, typically Phd-s, first apply for H1B. Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft - every fortune 100 company - all apply for H1Bs. It is just that Indian & US based IT service companies - TCS, InfoSys, Wipro, Cognizant (US) apply for more. Green Cards (EB-1, EB-2,EB-3) are for permanent residency. H1B is temporary work visa valid only for 6 years.