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I mean the cartels do control a number of metro areas. What's the argument for Americans allowing them to spread throughout the US (more so) than they already h

I mean the cartels do control a number of metro areas. What's the argument for Americans allowing them to spread throughout the US (more so) than they already have? Most Mexicans are good people (like everyone else), but there are "bad guys" and horrors. What's the argument for allowing their spread? Not that interested in piles of mutilated corpses in major towns...you can find plenty of examples of narco terrorism like that.

SwellJoe 10y ago
That's overblown, to some degree (in the same way some exaggerate "inner city" crime in the US). It exists, and in places where it does, it is horrifying. And, it is partly the fault of, and responsibility of, US drug policy. We should own that, instead of shaking our heads and lamenting how awful Mexican crime is. It is American crime, too, it just happens south of the border because that's how the economic incentives our failed drug policy dictate things will go. Yes, there's higher corruption, at the police and judicial level, and that plays a role. And, yes, there is higher poverty, which empowers criminals and enables recruiting. All are solvable and a significant portion of the solutions are on our side of the border. We've been shitting on Mexico with our failed drug policy for decades.
- aaron-lebo 10y ago
  I agree that much of it is the US's fault and that the US changing policy could help dramatically. That being said, if that happened today the cartels still exist and they'll exist for several generations and they'll still have military, police, and government collaborators. Unless that goes away then the mindset which allowed the cartels to engage in what is essentially a cold civil war and has allowed more than 100,000 people to be killed (many tortured) will continue to exist. Until that stops existing there's no way in hell the US should open their borders and allow movement into US territory. You'd have the cartels (heavily armed and financed) moving into US cities and claiming turf, and then you'd have that violence here and even more guns available. It just isn't worth it. The cartels could be more powerful than the Italian mob ever was. If the cartels lose influence and Mexico becomes a much less violent place in a few generations, maybe then you can consider opening the borders. But how would it happen any time soon without harming a lot of innocent people? It's hard to exaggerate the brutality or (potential) reach of the cartels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War
mozumder 10y ago
Do cartels even exist in the US? Why would cartels be in the US with open borders? Doesn't open borders mean US law enforcement, like the DEA/FBI, gets to operate in Mexico now? How would the cartels survive under that, if they can't even survive in the US?
- aaron-lebo 10y ago
  Yes, they do. Quick googling (reputable sources) show that. They're especially prevalent in the prison system. Production and transport is through Mexico but consumers are in the US so they exist on both sides of the border. Why would the cartels not move into the US given the chance? You underestimate their reach, there's no way the DEA/FBI could shut them down when they can't control the drug war as it is. If you aren't aware of them in the US it's because they aren't as open about violence.
  - mozumder 10y ago
    Perfect, now they won't be as open about violence under an open-border system in Mexican states monitored by the DEA/FBI. I mean, they don't want to be a "prison gang", do they? Remember, the reason cartels exist is because of corrupt Mexican police, something the FBI is good at controlling.

SwellJoe 10y ago

That's overblown, to some degree (in the same way some exaggerate "inner city" crime in the US). It exists, and in places where it does, it is horrifying. And, it is partly the fault of, and responsibility of, US drug policy. We should own that, instead of shaking our heads and lamenting how awful Mexican crime is. It is American crime, too, it just happens south of the border because that's how the economic incentives our failed drug policy dictate things will go. Yes, there's higher corruption, at the police and judicial level, and that plays a role. And, yes, there is higher poverty, which empowers criminals and enables recruiting. All are solvable and a significant portion of the solutions are on our side of the border. We've been shitting on Mexico with our failed drug policy for decades.

aaron-lebo 10y ago
I agree that much of it is the US's fault and that the US changing policy could help dramatically. That being said, if that happened today the cartels still exist and they'll exist for several generations and they'll still have military, police, and government collaborators. Unless that goes away then the mindset which allowed the cartels to engage in what is essentially a cold civil war and has allowed more than 100,000 people to be killed (many tortured) will continue to exist. Until that stops existing there's no way in hell the US should open their borders and allow movement into US territory. You'd have the cartels (heavily armed and financed) moving into US cities and claiming turf, and then you'd have that violence here and even more guns available. It just isn't worth it. The cartels could be more powerful than the Italian mob ever was. If the cartels lose influence and Mexico becomes a much less violent place in a few generations, maybe then you can consider opening the borders. But how would it happen any time soon without harming a lot of innocent people? It's hard to exaggerate the brutality or (potential) reach of the cartels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War

mozumder 10y ago

Do cartels even exist in the US? Why would cartels be in the US with open borders? Doesn't open borders mean US law enforcement, like the DEA/FBI, gets to operate in Mexico now? How would the cartels survive under that, if they can't even survive in the US?

aaron-lebo 10y ago
Yes, they do. Quick googling (reputable sources) show that. They're especially prevalent in the prison system. Production and transport is through Mexico but consumers are in the US so they exist on both sides of the border. Why would the cartels not move into the US given the chance? You underestimate their reach, there's no way the DEA/FBI could shut them down when they can't control the drug war as it is. If you aren't aware of them in the US it's because they aren't as open about violence.
- mozumder 10y ago
  Perfect, now they won't be as open about violence under an open-border system in Mexican states monitored by the DEA/FBI. I mean, they don't want to be a "prison gang", do they? Remember, the reason cartels exist is because of corrupt Mexican police, something the FBI is good at controlling.