6 ms·

It would be a lot easier and economically beneficial to just have open borders. What would it take to turn Mexico and Canada into our 51st & 52nd states? So th

It would be a lot easier and economically beneficial to just have open borders. What would it take to turn Mexico and Canada into our 51st & 52nd states? So there aren't border controls or inspections there?

SwellJoe 10y ago
Convincing ~50% of Americans that Mexicans don't want to steal their jobs, rape their wives/daughters, or give their kids drugs. I'm on your team, but we've got a long way to go to get America ready for open borders, even with our nearest neighbors that are longtime trading partners and allies.
- mozumder 10y ago
  Well I suppose we can expect some inflation due to the costs of losing Mexican migrant labor. That could be a start to convince Americans that we need these kinds of open borders. But I guess a real open-borders system would require things like common currencies or common judicial system across North America?
  - DaUR 10y ago
    > would require things like common currencies That would be a disaster, and would hurt the dollar and therefore US NatSec and power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimum_currency_area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimum_currency_area
    - mozumder 10y ago
      That doesn't actually state that North America isn't an optimal currency area.
      - DaUR 10y ago
        You're supposed to look at what an optimal currency area is, and see if it applies. Don't just take Wikipedia's opinion for it. It's not. Cultural, language differences, asymmetric shocks, many reasons why. It would be the same catastrophe as the euro, where the euro is severely undervalued for Germany's economy, unfairly helping their exports, and severely overvalued for Greece, unfairly harming their exports.
- lutorm 10y ago
  You forgot convincing the Mexicans and Canadians that they are better off giving up their sovereignty... unless you planned on pulling a Hawaii.
  - mozumder 10y ago
    I think for that to happen, we'd have to have universal health-care, at the minimum, along with lots of other details. Maybe a fair court system, gun control, proper environmental actions, etc.. All these details are negotiable. The question is: what would it actually take to do that?
    - aaron-lebo 10y ago
      It seems like an impossible task. The US can't provide universal health care to its own citizens...how could it offer it to tens of millions of poor Mexicans. Gun control is an issue in the US now, imagine the arguments against it when really nasty criminals really do have sizable armories. Good luck convincing the average person to give up the right to carry a pistol.
      - SwellJoe 10y ago
        "The US can't provide universal health care to its own citizens...how could it offer it to tens of millions of poor Mexicans." I agree there is a challenge here (because I support universal healthcare and I support open borders, while seeing how that could be disastrous for fiscal responsibility). It really should have happened years ago...Mexico would be economically healthier (though they're actually in better shape than most Americans have been led to believe), and it would be easier to find a path toward universal healthcare across the continent, so that'd no longer be a major factor for where people choose to live. Also, by even the most pessimistic measure immigrants become a net positive for our economy by the second generation...and that fact is a big part of US economic growth over most of its existence. So, we just need to find a way to hasten that transition to contributing member of society, reduce the inefficiencies of the "emergency room and debt" universal healthcare system we currently have for immigrants, the homeless, etc., and negotiate with Mexico to normalize services across the continent (normalizing means we've got to start to catch up with Canada, too). Sure, it's a longterm project, but I think it's worth doing. Economic growth in the US has slowed tremendously. Expanding our trade with Mexico, including free movement of human capital, would be a great thing, IMHO. We're just in such an ugly time in our history. People are lashing out at any convenient scapegoat, and a few billionaires are happy to point at Mexicans, lest people start to question their own motives and actions.
- aaron-lebo 10y ago
  I mean the cartels do control a number of metro areas. What's the argument for Americans allowing them to spread throughout the US (more so) than they already have? Most Mexicans are good people (like everyone else), but there are "bad guys" and horrors. What's the argument for allowing their spread? Not that interested in piles of mutilated corpses in major towns...you can find plenty of examples of narco terrorism like that.
  - SwellJoe 10y ago
    That's overblown, to some degree (in the same way some exaggerate "inner city" crime in the US). It exists, and in places where it does, it is horrifying. And, it is partly the fault of, and responsibility of, US drug policy. We should own that, instead of shaking our heads and lamenting how awful Mexican crime is. It is American crime, too, it just happens south of the border because that's how the economic incentives our failed drug policy dictate things will go. Yes, there's higher corruption, at the police and judicial level, and that plays a role. And, yes, there is higher poverty, which empowers criminals and enables recruiting. All are solvable and a significant portion of the solutions are on our side of the border. We've been shitting on Mexico with our failed drug policy for decades.
    - aaron-lebo 10y ago
      I agree that much of it is the US's fault and that the US changing policy could help dramatically. That being said, if that happened today the cartels still exist and they'll exist for several generations and they'll still have military, police, and government collaborators. Unless that goes away then the mindset which allowed the cartels to engage in what is essentially a cold civil war and has allowed more than 100,000 people to be killed (many tortured) will continue to exist. Until that stops existing there's no way in hell the US should open their borders and allow movement into US territory. You'd have the cartels (heavily armed and financed) moving into US cities and claiming turf, and then you'd have that violence here and even more guns available. It just isn't worth it. The cartels could be more powerful than the Italian mob ever was. If the cartels lose influence and Mexico becomes a much less violent place in a few generations, maybe then you can consider opening the borders. But how would it happen any time soon without harming a lot of innocent people? It's hard to exaggerate the brutality or (potential) reach of the cartels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War
- briandear 10y ago
  Canada and Mexico don't have open borders so it would seem silly for the US to have open borders.
krapp 10y ago
>What would it take to turn Mexico and Canada into our 51st & 52nd states? At least two wars.
- rajanikanthr 10y ago
  lol
edko 10y ago
Mexico itself is composed of 31 states. Why are you suggesting that the whole country should join as only one state?
- mozumder 10y ago
  It could be that, or it could be divided into another set of states, or it could be 31 additional states.
  - krapp 10y ago
    That flag would be ridiculous, though. We could just rename Canada to Ultra Michigan and reannex Mexico to Texas, and merge Texas/Mexico with Oklahoma, to keep the count at 50.
    - steffan 10y ago
      Nah - reap the rewards of corporate sponsorship and rename the combined state 'Texaco'

SwellJoe 10y ago

Convincing ~50% of Americans that Mexicans don't want to steal their jobs, rape their wives/daughters, or give their kids drugs. I'm on your team, but we've got a long way to go to get America ready for open borders, even with our nearest neighbors that are longtime trading partners and allies.

mozumder 10y ago
Well I suppose we can expect some inflation due to the costs of losing Mexican migrant labor. That could be a start to convince Americans that we need these kinds of open borders. But I guess a real open-borders system would require things like common currencies or common judicial system across North America?
- DaUR 10y ago
  > would require things like common currencies That would be a disaster, and would hurt the dollar and therefore US NatSec and power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimum_currency_area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimum_currency_area
  - mozumder 10y ago
    That doesn't actually state that North America isn't an optimal currency area.
    - DaUR 10y ago
      You're supposed to look at what an optimal currency area is, and see if it applies. Don't just take Wikipedia's opinion for it. It's not. Cultural, language differences, asymmetric shocks, many reasons why. It would be the same catastrophe as the euro, where the euro is severely undervalued for Germany's economy, unfairly helping their exports, and severely overvalued for Greece, unfairly harming their exports.
lutorm 10y ago
You forgot convincing the Mexicans and Canadians that they are better off giving up their sovereignty... unless you planned on pulling a Hawaii.
- mozumder 10y ago
  I think for that to happen, we'd have to have universal health-care, at the minimum, along with lots of other details. Maybe a fair court system, gun control, proper environmental actions, etc.. All these details are negotiable. The question is: what would it actually take to do that?
  - aaron-lebo 10y ago
    It seems like an impossible task. The US can't provide universal health care to its own citizens...how could it offer it to tens of millions of poor Mexicans. Gun control is an issue in the US now, imagine the arguments against it when really nasty criminals really do have sizable armories. Good luck convincing the average person to give up the right to carry a pistol.
    - SwellJoe 10y ago
      "The US can't provide universal health care to its own citizens...how could it offer it to tens of millions of poor Mexicans." I agree there is a challenge here (because I support universal healthcare and I support open borders, while seeing how that could be disastrous for fiscal responsibility). It really should have happened years ago...Mexico would be economically healthier (though they're actually in better shape than most Americans have been led to believe), and it would be easier to find a path toward universal healthcare across the continent, so that'd no longer be a major factor for where people choose to live. Also, by even the most pessimistic measure immigrants become a net positive for our economy by the second generation...and that fact is a big part of US economic growth over most of its existence. So, we just need to find a way to hasten that transition to contributing member of society, reduce the inefficiencies of the "emergency room and debt" universal healthcare system we currently have for immigrants, the homeless, etc., and negotiate with Mexico to normalize services across the continent (normalizing means we've got to start to catch up with Canada, too). Sure, it's a longterm project, but I think it's worth doing. Economic growth in the US has slowed tremendously. Expanding our trade with Mexico, including free movement of human capital, would be a great thing, IMHO. We're just in such an ugly time in our history. People are lashing out at any convenient scapegoat, and a few billionaires are happy to point at Mexicans, lest people start to question their own motives and actions.
aaron-lebo 10y ago
I mean the cartels do control a number of metro areas. What's the argument for Americans allowing them to spread throughout the US (more so) than they already have? Most Mexicans are good people (like everyone else), but there are "bad guys" and horrors. What's the argument for allowing their spread? Not that interested in piles of mutilated corpses in major towns...you can find plenty of examples of narco terrorism like that.
- SwellJoe 10y ago
  That's overblown, to some degree (in the same way some exaggerate "inner city" crime in the US). It exists, and in places where it does, it is horrifying. And, it is partly the fault of, and responsibility of, US drug policy. We should own that, instead of shaking our heads and lamenting how awful Mexican crime is. It is American crime, too, it just happens south of the border because that's how the economic incentives our failed drug policy dictate things will go. Yes, there's higher corruption, at the police and judicial level, and that plays a role. And, yes, there is higher poverty, which empowers criminals and enables recruiting. All are solvable and a significant portion of the solutions are on our side of the border. We've been shitting on Mexico with our failed drug policy for decades.
  - aaron-lebo 10y ago
    I agree that much of it is the US's fault and that the US changing policy could help dramatically. That being said, if that happened today the cartels still exist and they'll exist for several generations and they'll still have military, police, and government collaborators. Unless that goes away then the mindset which allowed the cartels to engage in what is essentially a cold civil war and has allowed more than 100,000 people to be killed (many tortured) will continue to exist. Until that stops existing there's no way in hell the US should open their borders and allow movement into US territory. You'd have the cartels (heavily armed and financed) moving into US cities and claiming turf, and then you'd have that violence here and even more guns available. It just isn't worth it. The cartels could be more powerful than the Italian mob ever was. If the cartels lose influence and Mexico becomes a much less violent place in a few generations, maybe then you can consider opening the borders. But how would it happen any time soon without harming a lot of innocent people? It's hard to exaggerate the brutality or (potential) reach of the cartels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War
briandear 10y ago
Canada and Mexico don't have open borders so it would seem silly for the US to have open borders.

krapp 10y ago

>What would it take to turn Mexico and Canada into our 51st & 52nd states? At least two wars.

rajanikanthr 10y ago
lol

edko 10y ago

Mexico itself is composed of 31 states. Why are you suggesting that the whole country should join as only one state?

mozumder 10y ago
It could be that, or it could be divided into another set of states, or it could be 31 additional states.
- krapp 10y ago
  That flag would be ridiculous, though. We could just rename Canada to Ultra Michigan and reannex Mexico to Texas, and merge Texas/Mexico with Oklahoma, to keep the count at 50.
  - steffan 10y ago
    Nah - reap the rewards of corporate sponsorship and rename the combined state 'Texaco'