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I mean, not to be flippant, but... that's just like your opinion. Of course not anybody can make a well-performing web app, just like not just anybody can make

by i80and 10y ago

I mean, not to be flippant, but... that's just like your opinion. Of course not anybody can make a well-performing web app, just like not just anybody can make a well performing Android app. In some ways, yes, it is a little more difficult. But speaking as a C programmer who was pleasantly surprised by the change, it's not that difficult to make a performant web app. I've never had a problem with it.

johansch 10y ago
Wait what? It is insanely complex to make a performant web app compared to a performant C app (let's say we're using a traditional UI toolkit as a comparison). You need to understand the DOM (and how various CSS declations contribute to rendering complexities), the rendering model, reflows, work around them, pre-fetch tricks, etc etc. Not saying anything like this impossible, but I'm pretty sure the claim that "oh all web devs can do this" is invalid. Basically; the performance issue with declarative UIs is that it's really easy to declare something very complex by mistake.
quanticle 10y ago
Of course not *anybody* can make a well-performing web app, just like not just anybody can make a well peforming Android app. Now that's a false equivalence if I've ever heard one. Making a well-performing mobile website that does more than display text is really difficult. The tools one uses to build and test websites are all geared towards desktop development. Only recently have we begun to see browser vendors adding support to their dev consoles for mobile devices, and those tools still aren't nearly as extensive as the tools one uses for native app development. Moreover, both iOS and Android have pretty decent documentation around how to use their APIs and what one needs to do to make an app that responds to user input nearly instantly. For the web... well, to call Javascript performance tuning folklore does a disservice to folklore. It's more like rumor and witchcraft. Speaking as a C programmer who was pleasantly surprised by the change Well, that sort of explains it, I guess. You moved from one platform with crappy tooling to a platform with ever so slightly less crappy tooling. Of course things look like an improvement to you. Meanwhile, to programmers coming in from Java, .Net, or other, more "corporate" languages, the lack of tool support for Javascript makes it really difficult to write good apps in a reasonable amount of time. Now you might just say, "Well those guys are just shitty programmers." Fine. I agree with you. But somehow, Android and iOS allow even shitty programmers to write functional workaday mobile applications. HTML and Javascript do not (at least, not on mobile). So by that standard, HTML/JS is an objectively worse platform.

by i80and 10y ago

johansch 10y ago

Wait what? It is insanely complex to make a performant web app compared to a performant C app (let's say we're using a traditional UI toolkit as a comparison). You need to understand the DOM (and how various CSS declations contribute to rendering complexities), the rendering model, reflows, work around them, pre-fetch tricks, etc etc. Not saying anything like this impossible, but I'm pretty sure the claim that "oh all web devs can do this" is invalid. Basically; the performance issue with declarative UIs is that it's really easy to declare something very complex by mistake.

quanticle 10y ago

Of course not *anybody* can make a well-performing web app, just like not just anybody can make a well peforming Android app. Now that's a false equivalence if I've ever heard one. Making a well-performing mobile website that does more than display text is really difficult. The tools one uses to build and test websites are all geared towards desktop development. Only recently have we begun to see browser vendors adding support to their dev consoles for mobile devices, and those tools still aren't nearly as extensive as the tools one uses for native app development. Moreover, both iOS and Android have pretty decent documentation around how to use their APIs and what one needs to do to make an app that responds to user input nearly instantly. For the web... well, to call Javascript performance tuning folklore does a disservice to folklore. It's more like rumor and witchcraft. Speaking as a C programmer who was pleasantly surprised by the change Well, that sort of explains it, I guess. You moved from one platform with crappy tooling to a platform with ever so slightly less crappy tooling. Of course things look like an improvement to you. Meanwhile, to programmers coming in from Java, .Net, or other, more "corporate" languages, the lack of tool support for Javascript makes it really difficult to write good apps in a reasonable amount of time. Now you might just say, "Well those guys are just shitty programmers." Fine. I agree with you. But somehow, Android and iOS allow even shitty programmers to write functional workaday mobile applications. HTML and Javascript do not (at least, not on mobile). So by that standard, HTML/JS is an objectively worse platform.