7 ms·

yes, and maybe immigration could actually be a good thing by creating problems to solve... a circular logic, but it may help unravel centuries of mono-culture a

yes, and maybe immigration could actually be a good thing by creating problems to solve... a circular logic, but it may help unravel centuries of mono-culture and its idiosyncrasies such as mistrust and racism.

grillvogel 10y ago
so all japan needs to do is completely destroy their own culture, its so simple now
- ue_ 10y ago
  How does immigration mean that you're "destroying their own culture"? Please stop talking in hyperbole and being sarcastic, it isn't helpful. I can't see why a unique culture ought to be 'preserved' as people say, either. And I can't see why the 'bad' parts cannot be slowly eroded over time. Nor do I see why certain 'races' ought to be kept. This has always been an argument that's been relatively ignored - why exactly is it desirable to keep a certain race or culture, especially when certain elements of that culture are horrible? Please do not misinterpret me; I do not speak in terms of some 'white man's burden' in a colonial way. It is ultimately the decision of the Japanese citizens. But I do not see why they should be motivated in the name of nebulous and vague concepts of pride rather than what is best pragmatically.
  - ng12 10y ago
    > It is ultimately the decision of the Japanese citizens I mean, that's exactly it. Why is it so shocking an idea that the Japanese apparently prefer to retain their homogeneity even if it weakens their economy?
    - ue_ 10y ago
      >Why is it so shocking an idea that the Japanese apparently prefer to retain their homogeneity even if it weakens their economy? Is this true? How do you know?
      - ng12 10y ago
        I'm mostly judging by the fact that Japan is a democratic country in which immigration is incredibly restricted. The country is over 98% ethnically Japanese.
        ue_ 10y ago
        That's not evidence; you'll have to show that at least 50% of the population believe in 'preserving Japanese identity' and have voted as such to limit immigration, for that purpose. Otherwise you're talking from nothing, just your intuition. It's an easy intuition to have, I'll give you that.
        ng12 10y ago
        I thought the use of "apparently" would imply it was intuition.
        fiblye 10y ago
        Immigration here is incredibly relaxed. If you have a college degree, you can find someone willing to offer you a job, and you haven't committed a felony, you're welcome. People just choose not to come to Japan because they endlessly hear how supposedly racist it is here and how difficult it is to get over the language barrier. And it may be a surprise to many westerners who find a need to push their cultural and political perspectives everywhere, but some people do indeed prefer protecting a cultural or national identity over quick economic gains. A non-insignificant portion of the world looks at America and and instead of thinking, "Wow, this is what we need to be", thinks, "This is what I don't want to become."
        chillwaves 10y ago
        > "This is what I don't want to become." Very much doubt this is due to our history of immigration. Is this the same kind of logic that says gay people shouldn't have kids people the bigots will bully them?
        10y ago
    - flamedoge 10y ago
      It's not.
    - edblarney 10y ago
      I don't think it's fair to assume that 'lack of immigration' = 'bad economy'. There are tons of places in the world with fairly massive immigration and/or multicultural societies - that are far worse than Japan. Brazil is a very, very multi-ethnic and blended society - and it's not exactly a paradise. In fact - the opposite may be true: Japan is not a huge-huge country, and they hit massively 'above their weight' on so many things. One could possibly argue that their ethnic cohesion and national identity are actually drivers of their success. On the whole I guess it's hard to tell, but again I don't think it's fair to always assume 'immigration = good for economy'.
    - ekianjo 10y ago
      countries In europe with massive immigration levels are not doIng extremely well. Lets not pretend immigration solves everything please.
      - ue_ 10y ago
        I assume you are referring to the refugee crisis. Nobody claims that refugees help with the economy. Nobody is saying immigration solves everything.
        michaelbuddy 10y ago
        Actually there are people in this thread who think that destroying culture is a positive thing, so people are in fact saying that and sometimes they are pushing for it whether they say it outright, or they do it without knowing it will be the consequence. And as far as the places that have refugees where people are not happy about it, many people are insisting that refugees "help the economy" as a reason it should continue of course it's a narrow assessment and totally invalidates citizens concerns and that's the problem. Not to mention those pushing for refugees never seem to live in the neighborhoods where the burden or problems will need shouldered. It's always some moral stance rather than an empirical one and frankly a citizens preference to not have to deal with the trouble should be the first consideration but lately it hasn't been.
- flamedoge 10y ago
  Accepting more immigrants doesn't have to mean destroying own culture. I don't see why Japan can't promote and preserve its own culture while accepting immigrants. Is coexisting that hard?
  - Nadya 10y ago
    >Is coexisting that hard? Yes. Because of culture clashes. New Culture B doesn't like how existing Culture A "does things" and demands a change. While they are some small minority, they often get ignored by the majority (Culture A). Over time, as more and more of Culture B immigrates into Culture A, they become large enough of a group that they can no longer be ignored. If Culture B was totally fine with adopting Culture A and adding to the culture rather than demanding things be done their way "culture killing" wouldn't be as large of an issue. If each culture was 100% identical they would be the same culture, not different cultures. So there will always be culture clash. One such example of cultures clash is Japan's "cute culture" is often seen as perverted from the outside world and there are often calls to censor things that are seen as being totally innocent in Japan. What side you think is "right" or "wrong" is largely opinion in most cases and the two sides will fight - and hopefully (but rarely) those fights never escalate past yelling at one another.
    - flamedoge 10y ago
      I think we can all agree that there already are vetting processes to screen for immigrants who are least likely to receive and give cultural shocks with existing cultures within the country. These should be given appropriate weight as desired by citizens of the country.
      - Nadya 10y ago
        >These should be given appropriate weight as desired by citizens of the country. Which is precisely the decision that has already been made that people not part of the culture disagree with. Surprise, surprise, people with different cultural values are disagreeing with the decision made by another culture regarding their own cultural values. Going so far as to argue that they should change their cultural values to more align with the cultural values of the criticizers because their cultural values are "not worth defending" and should be changed. Color me unsurprised. This is still the most accurate and most depressing comic I've seen regarding timeless topics such as these [0]. You can look into history and see something play out in the exact same way dozens if not hundreds of times, across many cultures and even differing centuries, yet people will insist it won't happen that way this time for whatever reasons they can contrive. I can list out dozens of cultures that have disappeared with time due to (1) invaders or (2) assimilation. There are many cultures that have changed with time, on their own terms, and those cultures are among the oldest in the world with the oldest traditions - and often are very isolated cultures with few immigrants. You can list out drastic changes in cultures, which often follow wars (for the losing side) or genocide. You can argue some drastic changes in culture due to losing war is overall good (re: Nazis. They lost.) but that isn't the case every time for every war. I'm all for sharing cultures and learning from one another. I'm not one for destroying cultures because they hold different cultural values than some other group of people who think they are "right". Most of the world's greatest evils have been committed by groups of people who were certain they were the ones who were "right". [0] http://i.imgur.com/AerTpYJ.png http://i.imgur.com/AerTpYJ.png
- SerLava 10y ago
  Some of the best events in history have been the destruction of cultures. 14th amendment. VE Day. VJ Day. The collapse of the Soviet Union. I would characterize the Japanese social changes after world war 2 as far... far... more intense than the destruction of cultural institutions described by the comment above yours.
- krapp 10y ago
  Japan has been influenced by the rest of the world for millennia - just recently there was an article posted to HN about ancient Persia having envoys to Imperial Japan[0,1], to say nothing of China, which is probably responsible for just about everything you associate with "Japanese culture," or the Western influences behind the Meiji restoration and postwar government. All cultures change over time, even the ones that some people, for some reason, hold up as icons of homogeneous purity like Japan. A culture which isn't an expression of the people who currently live in a certain place and time is dead. That immigration would inevitably alter Japanese culture is a sign of health and evolutionary progress, not destruction. I mean, the Ainu might even consider it karma, since they were already there before the Yamato showed up with their weird foreign ideas. [0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13693800 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13693800 [1]http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/10/05/national/history/research-uncovers-evidence-ancient-japan-cosmopolitan-previously-thought/ http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/10/05/national/history...
  - edblarney 10y ago
    Being 'influenced' by other places is definitely not the same thing as mass migration. We often think of 'Tea' as a very English thing (and it is in many ways now), but of course it has it's roots in China/Asia i.e. global trade. The Japanese borrowed ideas from elsewhere for quite some time (as has everyone of course), but they would view 'building Western warships' as something very different from 'importing millions of Westerners'. Also, one could argue that Japan, for a variety of reasons, was far more isolated than other places.
    - krapp 10y ago
      One could also argue that the rate of cultural change by immigrants is lessened by the need for those immigrants to operate within the system, and by their relative lack of influence on the culture as a whole. You're probably going to have a hard time finding a job in Japan that isn't "English Teacher" if you can't speak Japanese effectively - which is an example of the parent culture exacting a price in the form of partial assimilation for the opportunity of cultural exchange. Plus, most immigrants to Japan are probably going to be from China, Korea or other Asian countries, simply because of proximity. Immigration doesn't necessarily have to mean millions of Westerners.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  You're really underplaying how much extant "Japanese culture" sucks for young people, and women, and everyone who isn't a wealthy old man. There's so much pressure to get a particular type of job (or marry a dude who has that type of job) and jobs of that type are quite unpleasant. Mis-investment on an immense scale (roads to nowhere, tearing down 20-story office buildings to build slightly fancier 22-story office buildings, ever-more-remote Tokyo suburbs while other cities wither, etc.) has deprived the rest of the economy of needed resources. That's left formerly-successful industrial organizations unable to reorganize for the "knowledge" economy. Big brands like Sony have been soundly beaten by Korean brands like Samsung. Those in charge are out of ideas, save for ideas about how to stay in charge. Everyone else is on the outside looking in.
  - nihonde 10y ago
    There is such a huge gap between your incredibly bleak image of Japan and the lively, optimistic and impressive Japan that I live in. I've lost count of the number of gaijin experts on Japan who want to tell me about how wrecked Japan is, and how Japanese people are in denial, and all the ways they need to emulate the West to get with the program. I've also lost count of the things that Japan does measurably better than every other country I've lived in. In the real world, the Japan that I live in is a country that by almost every measure is unrivaled in terms of intelligence, thoughtfulness, convenience, social justice, curiosity, work ethic, respect for tradition, ambitions for the future, and the ability to live your life in peace. But of course, Japan is very hard on itself and sets insanely high standards for itself at every level of society. If you are bullish on Japan, you're easily dismissed as a nationalist or racist or as living in denial. I guess the ultimate revenge is living well, so I've already won from that perspective. I feel genuinely sorry for people who can't see a good thing for what it is.
    - ue_ 10y ago
      >unrivaled in terms of intelligence, thoughtfulness, convenience, social justice, curiosity, work ethic, respect for tradition, ambitions for the future, and the ability to live your life in peace. What about wealth and income inequality? And what is there to show in terms of social justice? And why is respect for tradition something to be valued? And the lack of laws that prevent discrimaniton (except for the constitution, which I've read only applies to the citizens)? I'm curious, not trying to come accross as attackative.

grillvogel 10y ago

so all japan needs to do is completely destroy their own culture, its so simple now

ue_ 10y ago
How does immigration mean that you're "destroying their own culture"? Please stop talking in hyperbole and being sarcastic, it isn't helpful. I can't see why a unique culture ought to be 'preserved' as people say, either. And I can't see why the 'bad' parts cannot be slowly eroded over time. Nor do I see why certain 'races' ought to be kept. This has always been an argument that's been relatively ignored - why exactly is it desirable to keep a certain race or culture, especially when certain elements of that culture are horrible? Please do not misinterpret me; I do not speak in terms of some 'white man's burden' in a colonial way. It is ultimately the decision of the Japanese citizens. But I do not see why they should be motivated in the name of nebulous and vague concepts of pride rather than what is best pragmatically.
- ng12 10y ago
  > It is ultimately the decision of the Japanese citizens I mean, that's exactly it. Why is it so shocking an idea that the Japanese apparently prefer to retain their homogeneity even if it weakens their economy?
  - ue_ 10y ago
    >Why is it so shocking an idea that the Japanese apparently prefer to retain their homogeneity even if it weakens their economy? Is this true? How do you know?
    - ng12 10y ago
      I'm mostly judging by the fact that Japan is a democratic country in which immigration is incredibly restricted. The country is over 98% ethnically Japanese.
      - ue_ 10y ago
        That's not evidence; you'll have to show that at least 50% of the population believe in 'preserving Japanese identity' and have voted as such to limit immigration, for that purpose. Otherwise you're talking from nothing, just your intuition. It's an easy intuition to have, I'll give you that.
        ng12 10y ago
        I thought the use of "apparently" would imply it was intuition.
      - fiblye 10y ago
        Immigration here is incredibly relaxed. If you have a college degree, you can find someone willing to offer you a job, and you haven't committed a felony, you're welcome. People just choose not to come to Japan because they endlessly hear how supposedly racist it is here and how difficult it is to get over the language barrier. And it may be a surprise to many westerners who find a need to push their cultural and political perspectives everywhere, but some people do indeed prefer protecting a cultural or national identity over quick economic gains. A non-insignificant portion of the world looks at America and and instead of thinking, "Wow, this is what we need to be", thinks, "This is what I don't want to become."
        chillwaves 10y ago
        > "This is what I don't want to become." Very much doubt this is due to our history of immigration. Is this the same kind of logic that says gay people shouldn't have kids people the bigots will bully them?
        10y ago
  - flamedoge 10y ago
    It's not.
  - edblarney 10y ago
    I don't think it's fair to assume that 'lack of immigration' = 'bad economy'. There are tons of places in the world with fairly massive immigration and/or multicultural societies - that are far worse than Japan. Brazil is a very, very multi-ethnic and blended society - and it's not exactly a paradise. In fact - the opposite may be true: Japan is not a huge-huge country, and they hit massively 'above their weight' on so many things. One could possibly argue that their ethnic cohesion and national identity are actually drivers of their success. On the whole I guess it's hard to tell, but again I don't think it's fair to always assume 'immigration = good for economy'.
  - ekianjo 10y ago
    countries In europe with massive immigration levels are not doIng extremely well. Lets not pretend immigration solves everything please.
    - ue_ 10y ago
      I assume you are referring to the refugee crisis. Nobody claims that refugees help with the economy. Nobody is saying immigration solves everything.
      - michaelbuddy 10y ago
        Actually there are people in this thread who think that destroying culture is a positive thing, so people are in fact saying that and sometimes they are pushing for it whether they say it outright, or they do it without knowing it will be the consequence. And as far as the places that have refugees where people are not happy about it, many people are insisting that refugees "help the economy" as a reason it should continue of course it's a narrow assessment and totally invalidates citizens concerns and that's the problem. Not to mention those pushing for refugees never seem to live in the neighborhoods where the burden or problems will need shouldered. It's always some moral stance rather than an empirical one and frankly a citizens preference to not have to deal with the trouble should be the first consideration but lately it hasn't been.
flamedoge 10y ago
Accepting more immigrants doesn't have to mean destroying own culture. I don't see why Japan can't promote and preserve its own culture while accepting immigrants. Is coexisting that hard?
- Nadya 10y ago
  >Is coexisting that hard? Yes. Because of culture clashes. New Culture B doesn't like how existing Culture A "does things" and demands a change. While they are some small minority, they often get ignored by the majority (Culture A). Over time, as more and more of Culture B immigrates into Culture A, they become large enough of a group that they can no longer be ignored. If Culture B was totally fine with adopting Culture A and adding to the culture rather than demanding things be done their way "culture killing" wouldn't be as large of an issue. If each culture was 100% identical they would be the same culture, not different cultures. So there will always be culture clash. One such example of cultures clash is Japan's "cute culture" is often seen as perverted from the outside world and there are often calls to censor things that are seen as being totally innocent in Japan. What side you think is "right" or "wrong" is largely opinion in most cases and the two sides will fight - and hopefully (but rarely) those fights never escalate past yelling at one another.
  - flamedoge 10y ago
    I think we can all agree that there already are vetting processes to screen for immigrants who are least likely to receive and give cultural shocks with existing cultures within the country. These should be given appropriate weight as desired by citizens of the country.
    - Nadya 10y ago
      >These should be given appropriate weight as desired by citizens of the country. Which is precisely the decision that has already been made that people not part of the culture disagree with. Surprise, surprise, people with different cultural values are disagreeing with the decision made by another culture regarding their own cultural values. Going so far as to argue that they should change their cultural values to more align with the cultural values of the criticizers because their cultural values are "not worth defending" and should be changed. Color me unsurprised. This is still the most accurate and most depressing comic I've seen regarding timeless topics such as these [0]. You can look into history and see something play out in the exact same way dozens if not hundreds of times, across many cultures and even differing centuries, yet people will insist it won't happen that way this time for whatever reasons they can contrive. I can list out dozens of cultures that have disappeared with time due to (1) invaders or (2) assimilation. There are many cultures that have changed with time, on their own terms, and those cultures are among the oldest in the world with the oldest traditions - and often are very isolated cultures with few immigrants. You can list out drastic changes in cultures, which often follow wars (for the losing side) or genocide. You can argue some drastic changes in culture due to losing war is overall good (re: Nazis. They lost.) but that isn't the case every time for every war. I'm all for sharing cultures and learning from one another. I'm not one for destroying cultures because they hold different cultural values than some other group of people who think they are "right". Most of the world's greatest evils have been committed by groups of people who were certain they were the ones who were "right". [0] http://i.imgur.com/AerTpYJ.png http://i.imgur.com/AerTpYJ.png
SerLava 10y ago
Some of the best events in history have been the destruction of cultures. 14th amendment. VE Day. VJ Day. The collapse of the Soviet Union. I would characterize the Japanese social changes after world war 2 as far... far... more intense than the destruction of cultural institutions described by the comment above yours.
krapp 10y ago
Japan has been influenced by the rest of the world for millennia - just recently there was an article posted to HN about ancient Persia having envoys to Imperial Japan[0,1], to say nothing of China, which is probably responsible for just about everything you associate with "Japanese culture," or the Western influences behind the Meiji restoration and postwar government. All cultures change over time, even the ones that some people, for some reason, hold up as icons of homogeneous purity like Japan. A culture which isn't an expression of the people who currently live in a certain place and time is dead. That immigration would inevitably alter Japanese culture is a sign of health and evolutionary progress, not destruction. I mean, the Ainu might even consider it karma, since they were already there before the Yamato showed up with their weird foreign ideas. [0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13693800 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13693800 [1]http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/10/05/national/history/research-uncovers-evidence-ancient-japan-cosmopolitan-previously-thought/ http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/10/05/national/history...
- edblarney 10y ago
  Being 'influenced' by other places is definitely not the same thing as mass migration. We often think of 'Tea' as a very English thing (and it is in many ways now), but of course it has it's roots in China/Asia i.e. global trade. The Japanese borrowed ideas from elsewhere for quite some time (as has everyone of course), but they would view 'building Western warships' as something very different from 'importing millions of Westerners'. Also, one could argue that Japan, for a variety of reasons, was far more isolated than other places.
  - krapp 10y ago
    One could also argue that the rate of cultural change by immigrants is lessened by the need for those immigrants to operate within the system, and by their relative lack of influence on the culture as a whole. You're probably going to have a hard time finding a job in Japan that isn't "English Teacher" if you can't speak Japanese effectively - which is an example of the parent culture exacting a price in the form of partial assimilation for the opportunity of cultural exchange. Plus, most immigrants to Japan are probably going to be from China, Korea or other Asian countries, simply because of proximity. Immigration doesn't necessarily have to mean millions of Westerners.
jessaustin 10y ago
You're really underplaying how much extant "Japanese culture" sucks for young people, and women, and everyone who isn't a wealthy old man. There's so much pressure to get a particular type of job (or marry a dude who has that type of job) and jobs of that type are quite unpleasant. Mis-investment on an immense scale (roads to nowhere, tearing down 20-story office buildings to build slightly fancier 22-story office buildings, ever-more-remote Tokyo suburbs while other cities wither, etc.) has deprived the rest of the economy of needed resources. That's left formerly-successful industrial organizations unable to reorganize for the "knowledge" economy. Big brands like Sony have been soundly beaten by Korean brands like Samsung. Those in charge are out of ideas, save for ideas about how to stay in charge. Everyone else is on the outside looking in.
- nihonde 10y ago
  There is such a huge gap between your incredibly bleak image of Japan and the lively, optimistic and impressive Japan that I live in. I've lost count of the number of gaijin experts on Japan who want to tell me about how wrecked Japan is, and how Japanese people are in denial, and all the ways they need to emulate the West to get with the program. I've also lost count of the things that Japan does measurably better than every other country I've lived in. In the real world, the Japan that I live in is a country that by almost every measure is unrivaled in terms of intelligence, thoughtfulness, convenience, social justice, curiosity, work ethic, respect for tradition, ambitions for the future, and the ability to live your life in peace. But of course, Japan is very hard on itself and sets insanely high standards for itself at every level of society. If you are bullish on Japan, you're easily dismissed as a nationalist or racist or as living in denial. I guess the ultimate revenge is living well, so I've already won from that perspective. I feel genuinely sorry for people who can't see a good thing for what it is.
  - ue_ 10y ago
    >unrivaled in terms of intelligence, thoughtfulness, convenience, social justice, curiosity, work ethic, respect for tradition, ambitions for the future, and the ability to live your life in peace. What about wealth and income inequality? And what is there to show in terms of social justice? And why is respect for tradition something to be valued? And the lack of laws that prevent discrimaniton (except for the constitution, which I've read only applies to the citizens)? I'm curious, not trying to come accross as attackative.