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> People will simply return to barter. In what societies have humans used barter? I suspect we would instead use something like tobacco, laundry detergent, or

> People will simply return to barter. In what societies have humans used barter? I suspect we would instead use something like tobacco, laundry detergent, or startup t-shirts as cash or we would keep a mental register of who owes whom a favor.

FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
You're right to question it, there is no evidence of the idea Adam Smith promulgated (that barter societies were natural). Ancient societies used a credit system with debt being the social tie that binds a community together
dragonwriter 10y ago
> In what societies have humans used barter? All of them, including (but not limited to, since barter predates money) all the ones that also have a money economy.
- scott_s 10y ago
  The book "Debt: The First 5,000 Years" (https://www.mhpbooks.com/books/debt/ https://www.mhpbooks.com/books/debt/) makes a compelling case that no societies on record have depended on a barter economy. The author also argues that debt even predates state sponsored currency.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    Debt obviously predates states sponsored currency. Heck, money economies (that is, ones in which there is a generally accepted medium of exchange and unit of account for debt) predate state sponsored currency (or even states). I've never even heard of that being an active argument. And the question was about using barter, not depending on barter exclusively; every society has used barter. And, in any case, debt and barter are not opposed; a system that uses debt of arbitrary commodities without a commonly-accepted unit of account is still a barter system (barter systems with debt certainly have existed, whether or not they were ever the dominant basis for any economy.)
    - scott_s 10y ago
      The comment that got this whole subthread started was that we would "return to barter." That implies that there was a time where economies were primarily barter based, and that the question "In what societies have humans used barter?" likely meant primarily barter. So my understanding of the question was not using, but primarily barter.
  - asldkfjasfd7 10y ago
    It depends on some definitions, but I've read that's not the case. Jericho region is said to have been exclusively barter based until ~7,500 BC And it depends on what you mean by "depended on". The central authorities of the day maybe preferred to rely on financial tools, but the people themselves performed a non-insignificant amount of commerce using barter. "2 knicks on this clay tablet reminds me that I gave Tom two bushels of wheat, and Tom will return to me 2 pelts," contrived example to make the point aside, such scenarios as I understand it, were (and are) pretty common. It depends on what context you're looking from. Bankers might say it's a ridiculous, outdated notion, and sell the idea it's never really existed. Poor people might say yeah well, it's all we really have.
    - scott_s 10y ago
      The book "Debt" is decidedly not written by a banker. The author, David Graeber, was part of the Occupy movement, among other things: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Graeber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Graeber
coldtea 10y ago
>In what societies have humans used barter? Almost all of them to some degree. Including modern societies (at rural places), especially up until the sixties or so, and even Western European cities (during the war and the very poor years post war). Also common in communist countries...
- rimantas 10y ago
  How many communist countries have you lived in? Cared to name a couple, where barter was preferred?
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >How many communist countries have you lived in? How is that relevant? I've lived in a country that wasn't communist, but had a whole communist vs right/centre civil war. And I've visited a number of ex-communist countries, and know people from there. But this is not about what I've seen with my eyes, it's about what's recorded in history. Note also that I didn't say "preferred" (as in making barter the dominant and/or official economy). Barter was very common in communist countries for "black market" stuff (and in times of great crisis, for essentials). Here's from Wikipedia, about the aftermath of the revolution in USSR: Civil War ensued and the economy of the new regime became even more chaotic. With mismanagement rampant and hunger sweeping the land, the value of the ruble, currency of the nation, essentially collapsed.[1] During this interval, remembered by the name War Communism, money lost its function as a store of value and a means of exchange. A return was made by people in their daily lives to a _primitive barter economy_ (emphasis mine) Also here are some more modern examples: https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/12/16/another-socialist-economic-innovation-cuba-reinvents-barter-with-rum-for-czech-republic/#1243e5b638d9 https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/12/16/another-... And one not related to communism (as I wrote, barter was used in Western Europe and many other places as well, in rural societies, but also in times of inflation/depression): http://www.naturalnews.com/052224_economic_collapse_Venezuela_barter_economy.html http://www.naturalnews.com/052224_economic_collapse_Venezuel...

FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago

You're right to question it, there is no evidence of the idea Adam Smith promulgated (that barter societies were natural). Ancient societies used a credit system with debt being the social tie that binds a community together

dragonwriter 10y ago

> In what societies have humans used barter? All of them, including (but not limited to, since barter predates money) all the ones that also have a money economy.

scott_s 10y ago
The book "Debt: The First 5,000 Years" (https://www.mhpbooks.com/books/debt/ https://www.mhpbooks.com/books/debt/) makes a compelling case that no societies on record have depended on a barter economy. The author also argues that debt even predates state sponsored currency.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  Debt obviously predates states sponsored currency. Heck, money economies (that is, ones in which there is a generally accepted medium of exchange and unit of account for debt) predate state sponsored currency (or even states). I've never even heard of that being an active argument. And the question was about using barter, not depending on barter exclusively; every society has used barter. And, in any case, debt and barter are not opposed; a system that uses debt of arbitrary commodities without a commonly-accepted unit of account is still a barter system (barter systems with debt certainly have existed, whether or not they were ever the dominant basis for any economy.)
  - scott_s 10y ago
    The comment that got this whole subthread started was that we would "return to barter." That implies that there was a time where economies were primarily barter based, and that the question "In what societies have humans used barter?" likely meant primarily barter. So my understanding of the question was not using, but primarily barter.
- asldkfjasfd7 10y ago
  It depends on some definitions, but I've read that's not the case. Jericho region is said to have been exclusively barter based until ~7,500 BC And it depends on what you mean by "depended on". The central authorities of the day maybe preferred to rely on financial tools, but the people themselves performed a non-insignificant amount of commerce using barter. "2 knicks on this clay tablet reminds me that I gave Tom two bushels of wheat, and Tom will return to me 2 pelts," contrived example to make the point aside, such scenarios as I understand it, were (and are) pretty common. It depends on what context you're looking from. Bankers might say it's a ridiculous, outdated notion, and sell the idea it's never really existed. Poor people might say yeah well, it's all we really have.
  - scott_s 10y ago
    The book "Debt" is decidedly not written by a banker. The author, David Graeber, was part of the Occupy movement, among other things: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Graeber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Graeber

coldtea 10y ago

>In what societies have humans used barter? Almost all of them to some degree. Including modern societies (at rural places), especially up until the sixties or so, and even Western European cities (during the war and the very poor years post war). Also common in communist countries...

rimantas 10y ago
How many communist countries have you lived in? Cared to name a couple, where barter was preferred?
- coldtea 10y ago
  >How many communist countries have you lived in? How is that relevant? I've lived in a country that wasn't communist, but had a whole communist vs right/centre civil war. And I've visited a number of ex-communist countries, and know people from there. But this is not about what I've seen with my eyes, it's about what's recorded in history. Note also that I didn't say "preferred" (as in making barter the dominant and/or official economy). Barter was very common in communist countries for "black market" stuff (and in times of great crisis, for essentials). Here's from Wikipedia, about the aftermath of the revolution in USSR: Civil War ensued and the economy of the new regime became even more chaotic. With mismanagement rampant and hunger sweeping the land, the value of the ruble, currency of the nation, essentially collapsed.[1] During this interval, remembered by the name War Communism, money lost its function as a store of value and a means of exchange. A return was made by people in their daily lives to a _primitive barter economy_ (emphasis mine) Also here are some more modern examples: https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/12/16/another-socialist-economic-innovation-cuba-reinvents-barter-with-rum-for-czech-republic/#1243e5b638d9 https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/12/16/another-... And one not related to communism (as I wrote, barter was used in Western Europe and many other places as well, in rural societies, but also in times of inflation/depression): http://www.naturalnews.com/052224_economic_collapse_Venezuela_barter_economy.html http://www.naturalnews.com/052224_economic_collapse_Venezuel...