4 ms·

Or stop promoting engineers to management roles they aren't educated for or socially prepared for.

by bgun 10y ago

ar15saveslives 10y ago
What exactly do you mean by "socially prepared for"?
- stagbeetle 10y ago
  A lot of engineers have never held a position of leadership in any respect. As well, they're stereotypically tech-focused, rather than people-focused. This makes them less prepared for the stress and less in-tune with the emotions of others, i.e socially unprepared to be leaders.
  - kchoudhu 10y ago
    Acculturation takes time, which HR and upper management is pyschopathically unwilling to provide. They're too busy moving fast and breaking shit.
    - stagbeetle 10y ago
      Is complete acculturation practically possible? It seems that all cultures have foundations that never go away. How about partial acculturation? Has it successfully been done before? Has a company ever managed to completely change their inner workings without becoming something unrecognizable?
      - kchoudhu 10y ago
        I'm not asking for Borg-style assimilation: I'm asking for basic management standards followed by all managers. Upper management's pervasive refusal to pay anything more than token lip service to this standardization makes 99% of technology organizations a political hell to work in.
  - js8 10y ago
    What if it's the opposite? What if they see, much more clearly, that leading other than by doing is a load of BS? Look up the recent interview with Linus Torvalds.
kchoudhu 10y ago
But that results in MBA culture! ::nerd shudders:: It's a source of constant amazement to me that people who will drill incessantly on red-black trees won't put in a modicum of effort to learn even a little bit about the inherently more complicated business of managing people.
- voidlogic 10y ago
  >It's a source of constant amazement to me that people who will drill incessantly on red-black trees won't put in a modicum of effort to learn even a little bit about the inherently more complicated business of managing people. This isn't really an issue if you promote an engineer to mgmt when they have demonstrated that can manage people, rather than before and assume they can grow.
  - Tenhundfeld 10y ago
    That's a fair point, but I think that clean idea can be messy in practice. For one, engineers rarely manage people before they are managers. They might lead a team or be a product manager, etc., but those have different (albeit overlapping) challenges from managing people. Another important factor is that in small or fast-growing companies, there's often not a formal promotion to manager. One day, you're the solo dev or maybe the you're senior dev of some secondary system. That system gets unexpected popularity/traction, and your manager starts throwing resumes or new recruits in front of you. And before you know it, you're managing a team, still trying to lead code reviews but also dealing with personnel issues, manage timelines, etc. You weren't really promoted. You were just the person in charge of this thing, and the thing grew underneath you. I'm not saying that's ideal, but it's something I've seen fairly often.
  - mg03pa 10y ago
    It'd be great if you were right, and it was that easy. But you're wrong, and it's not.
    - kchoudhu 10y ago
      I appreciate the appeal of Starship Troopers style leadership: "everybody drops, everybody fights" is wonderful for morale, but everyone needs to go read the book to see what needs to happen before it is organizationally feasible. In the Troopers universe, promoted troopers are sent to a grueling OCS course that trains them to understand the ins and outs of leadership. NO technology organization I have been exposed to has had a similar training course for new promotes; leadership skills are assumed to blossom overnight upon promotion.
watwut 10y ago
There are plenty of engineers who ended up as a good managers. The problem is that management roles attracts people who seek control and power over others and can not get it otherwise. Some companies see the above as leadership material, promote them and crrate hell for everyone else.

Or stop promoting engineers to management roles they aren't educated for or socially prepared for.

by bgun 10y ago

Or stop promoting engineers to management roles they aren't educated for or socially prepared for.

ar15saveslives 10y ago

What exactly do you mean by "socially prepared for"?

stagbeetle 10y ago
A lot of engineers have never held a position of leadership in any respect. As well, they're stereotypically tech-focused, rather than people-focused. This makes them less prepared for the stress and less in-tune with the emotions of others, i.e socially unprepared to be leaders.
- kchoudhu 10y ago
  Acculturation takes time, which HR and upper management is pyschopathically unwilling to provide. They're too busy moving fast and breaking shit.
  - stagbeetle 10y ago
    Is complete acculturation practically possible? It seems that all cultures have foundations that never go away. How about partial acculturation? Has it successfully been done before? Has a company ever managed to completely change their inner workings without becoming something unrecognizable?
    - kchoudhu 10y ago
      I'm not asking for Borg-style assimilation: I'm asking for basic management standards followed by all managers. Upper management's pervasive refusal to pay anything more than token lip service to this standardization makes 99% of technology organizations a political hell to work in.
- js8 10y ago
  What if it's the opposite? What if they see, much more clearly, that leading other than by doing is a load of BS? Look up the recent interview with Linus Torvalds.

kchoudhu 10y ago

But that results in MBA culture! ::nerd shudders:: It's a source of constant amazement to me that people who will drill incessantly on red-black trees won't put in a modicum of effort to learn even a little bit about the inherently more complicated business of managing people.

voidlogic 10y ago
>It's a source of constant amazement to me that people who will drill incessantly on red-black trees won't put in a modicum of effort to learn even a little bit about the inherently more complicated business of managing people. This isn't really an issue if you promote an engineer to mgmt when they have demonstrated that can manage people, rather than before and assume they can grow.
- Tenhundfeld 10y ago
  That's a fair point, but I think that clean idea can be messy in practice. For one, engineers rarely manage people before they are managers. They might lead a team or be a product manager, etc., but those have different (albeit overlapping) challenges from managing people. Another important factor is that in small or fast-growing companies, there's often not a formal promotion to manager. One day, you're the solo dev or maybe the you're senior dev of some secondary system. That system gets unexpected popularity/traction, and your manager starts throwing resumes or new recruits in front of you. And before you know it, you're managing a team, still trying to lead code reviews but also dealing with personnel issues, manage timelines, etc. You weren't really promoted. You were just the person in charge of this thing, and the thing grew underneath you. I'm not saying that's ideal, but it's something I've seen fairly often.
- mg03pa 10y ago
  It'd be great if you were right, and it was that easy. But you're wrong, and it's not.
  - kchoudhu 10y ago
    I appreciate the appeal of Starship Troopers style leadership: "everybody drops, everybody fights" is wonderful for morale, but everyone needs to go read the book to see what needs to happen before it is organizationally feasible. In the Troopers universe, promoted troopers are sent to a grueling OCS course that trains them to understand the ins and outs of leadership. NO technology organization I have been exposed to has had a similar training course for new promotes; leadership skills are assumed to blossom overnight upon promotion.

watwut 10y ago

There are plenty of engineers who ended up as a good managers. The problem is that management roles attracts people who seek control and power over others and can not get it otherwise. Some companies see the above as leadership material, promote them and crrate hell for everyone else.