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Reddit's unpaid "internship" offer is apparently against labor laws
- jokermatt999 16y agoDirect link to the comment. http://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/c7vdo/call_for_interns/c0qq2iz?context=3 http://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/c7vdo/call_for_interns... According to the admins, Conde Naste's legal department cleared them, but I'm not sure. It looks like this could get ugly. The reddit community has a nasty habit of lashing out hard when they don't like something, but it usually blows over after a week or two. However, I've never seen it in the case where there could be legal action.
- vaksel 16y agowith lawyers it's usually not a case of whether something is legal or not...it's a case of whether or not there is a risk of something being enforced. I'm sure the admins attitude of "If you think it is illegal, don't apply." isn't going to help them either.
- tptacek 16y agoWhy the hell isn't Conde Nast simply paying interns? Guess: because they're actually really not OK with having interns (go! having an HR department!) and so the only way for the Reddit team to synthesize headcount was in this under-the-table fashion.
- tedunangst 16y agoThere's a comment saying Conde has hundreds of interns. They don't pay them because nobody in publishing pays any of their interns.
- samd 16y agoThis has been a common practice at media companies for many years.
- gte910h 16y agoAnd hopefully will be fixed with definitive enforcement, turning these internships into jobs.
- brown9-2 16y agoHiding behind "our lawyers said its ok" and "everyone else does it" is disappointing to see from someone in the HN/reddit community.
- brandnewlow 16y agoExactly. Welcome to publishing, guys! If you want to work for a magazine, that means working for free for years for most people.
- smackfu 16y agoPeople will actually pay money for Vogue's unpaid internships.
- viraptor 16y agoThis is confusing... looking at it from the "if I was the target audience" perspective: General idea: unpaid work is a strange idea, but I didn't have anything else planned - why not? Looking at the blog: 20h/week - that's cool, they're not expecting any actual work done. "Manage relationships with merchandise providers" - wait what? "help negotiate new licensing agreements" - phone monkey? "manage workflow of merchandise production from end to end" - doing actual work? with responsibilities?? I'm confused about who they're looking for. It looks like they need unpaid salespeople / junior account managers. But if someone can do the sales / manager position with ~1-month training and be useful for the other 2 months... I'm sure s/he can find a better position which actually pays commission.
- alex_c 16y agoThey're looking for people who are competent, but who are either naive, terrible at selling themselves to an employer, or vastly underestimating their ability to find a good paid position.
- viraptor 16y agoExactly, but that might work for example for a programmer (or some other not customer-facing position). How can someone negotiate a good deal if they're naive, underestimating, or terrible at selling themselves? Serious companies would try to hire exactly the other kind of people...
- tvon 16y agoIf they're going to be doing anything of value, pay them. What's the big deal?
- jpdbaugh 16y agoJust pay them minimum wage if that is all you can afford. This trend of kids being forced to take an unpaid internship for college credit is really hurting kids who pay their own way through school or just need to have a paying job in the summer for one reason or another. Really, in the grand scheme of things it can't cost much to pay minimum wage and I think better work will get done.
- tlrobinson 16y agoUnpaid internships are very common. As I understand it if you get course credit they don't have to pay you, hence the "we're legally required to ask you for a Letter of Credit".
- vaksel 16y agoapparently they are all breaking the law lots of info in this comment: http://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/c7vdo/call_for_interns/c0qq6jd http://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/c7vdo/call_for_interns...
- tlrobinson 16y agoIf they are then the laws aren't being enforced very often. Here's Reddit's response to these accusations: http://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/c7vdo/call_for_interns/c0qqfoe http://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/c7vdo/call_for_interns...
- scott_s 16y agoI found this response relevant: http://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/c7vdo/call_for_interns/c0qr367 http://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/c7vdo/call_for_interns...
- justinph 16y agoI believe the commenter on reddit is mistaken. If you're doing an internship for class credit (as is indicated in reddit's blog post), it can be unpaid. Note: I'm not a tax lawyer, so don't quote me on this.
- vaksel 16y agoyou wouldn't be a tax lawyer, you'd be a labor lawyer
- _delirium 16y agoIt has to not seem like a sham class, though, at least if anyone actually investigates it. Just the fact that you get course credit isn't really enough; it also has to be mainly educational, not just a job relabeled as a class. Here's the federal government's six-part test for it: http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.pdf http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.pdf
- lionhearted 16y agoUnder this definition, my internship at the Massachusetts Statehouse was illegal unpaid labor. This opportunity looks like a bad deal to me, I wouldn't do it personally, but trying to criminalize voluntary exchanges is no good in my opinion. Someone proactive about learning and making connections could benefit A LOT from this sort of thing and gain a lot more than $7/hour in value. Not my cup of tea, but I can see how it'd make sense for someone and I don't like seeing two people forbidden from a voluntary exchange they both think would work well for them.
- vaksel 16y agoby that logic, minimum wage and child labor laws should be illegal. If a child wants to work...who are you to stop them?
- lionhearted 16y ago> by that logic, minimum wage Minimum wage laws hurt people sometimes. They're not just benevolent laws that increase pay. It means that some low margin businesses won't be operated, and some low skilled people who aren't capable of doing work worth the minimum wage won't be able to find jobs. > and child labor laws should be illegal. If a child wants to work...who are you to stop them? What's a "child"? Is someone 14 years old and mature, disciplined, and learned a child? Should they be allowed to work if they want to? How about an extremely bright 12 year old? No dice, no matter what? I think people with a level of maturity and understanding should be allowed to make voluntary transactions, yes. I won't stop them. In fact, I think anyone who would stop two consenting adults from making a voluntary transaction, no matter how well intentioned, is doing a bad thing.
- alex_c 16y agoI think part of the problem is with that word, "voluntary" - and more specifically how it relates to another word, "desperate".
- vaksel 16y agominimum wage laws mean you are making enough to live. If you are making the minimum wage, and work 40 hours a week, that's $1,160 a month/$2,320 if they work 80 hours a week. Can someone really survive if they are being paid even less than that? Let's say you pay someone $5 an hour because someone is desperate they'll take any job...and they work 80 hours a week, that's only $1,600 a month. Can you survive on that? Yes some law margin businesses won't be operated, but that just means people won't have to work like slaves just to pay rent. So you would be fine with a 12 year old working in the coal mines? By law, anyone under 18 is not considered an adult. I guess by your logic, you'd have no problem with pedophilia, after all big bad law is stopping a 30 year old from banging a 12 year old.
- Zak 16y agoRegardless of the letter of the law, I don't see why anybody should be upset about this. Laws intended to keep people from taking unfair advantage of others who willingly agree to the arrangement are often horribly broken in that they treat a variety of situations where all parties receive benefits which are satisfactory to them as exploitative.
- gte910h 16y agoIt also discriminates towards people of means. If I had rich parents, I could afford to work there for nothing. As a person who paid for myself, I'd be unable to have done that at the start of my career
- hugh3 16y agoSo? Children of rich parents have all sorts of opportunities which aren't open to children of poor parents. Tutors, private schools, painless grad school. Interning at reddit is hardly at the top of the list.
- viraptor 16y agoThey have to treat them like that in many situations... If you're in a situation where you don't have much choice, the employer will say "testify that you're doing the work because you want to and get $1/h we give you, or you can go". It's hard to trust anyone who's already agreeing to do something not generally acceptable, because they gain something else from it. And for them the current situation is more important than the general justice. On the other hand, it's easier to say that a job which benefits the employer needs to be paid. There might be situations where it's not really needed, but it would be hard to find a situation where it hurts anyone. So why not enforce it?
- Zak 16y agoit would be hard to find a situation where it hurts anyone I beg to differ. I can think of a great many possible examples of situations where a startup or small business would benefit from having an intern, and have a lot more to teach an intern than a big company would. Small businesses and startups often have very limited funds.
- proee 16y agoThe idea of an unpaid internship is abominable. Most interns in these positions need money desperately to pay their student loans (or maybe their living expenses???). While it may not be illegal, it still generates a foul stench that reflects poorly on the founders of the company. I'd be more than happy to stand with a group of interns to help them protest this madness. Give me a sign and I'll stand on the street corner with you demanding justice. Bottom line, the "haves" are not willing to give (even a little) to the "have-nots".
- dantheman 16y agoI don't see why anyone would share care about the details of internship contract, unless they personally involved. I see no problem with unpaid internships -- i never did one, nor would I offer one. Unless of course I was losing money on the deal and I was doing it to just be nice. How is an unpaid internship different than becoming involved in an open source project? How is an unpaid internship different than helping a professor with their research? How is an unpaid internship different than volunteering at a soup kitchen or some other nonprofit?
- vaksel 16y agosimple, unlike those other ones, unpaid internships eliminate entry level jobs in the industry. Why should a company pay you $7-10 bucks an hour, if they can get someone to do it for free?
- _delirium 16y agoThere are gray areas, but on the last point, nonprofits are treated differently than for-profit corporations for labor-law purposes. In particular, nonprofits have a lot more leeway for soliciting volunteers than for-profit corporations do.
- gte910h 16y ago>I don't see why anyone would share care about the details of internship contract, unless they personally involved. Depresses pay. Tilts the workforce towards those who come from wealthy parents. Raises barriers to entry to career switching which decrease economic flexibility
- viraptor 16y agoYou commit to those things in an unofficial way. Someone might blame you if you stop being involved, but that's entirely your decision. If you're actually at work on the other hand, you start having responsibilities, deadlines and people depending on your work. Even if you cannot be held responsible for some actions, your contract will say you are most of the time. Any contract puts you in an official position, recognised as such by law. You cannot do whatever you want anymore.
- smackfu 16y ago"Yeah, that's actually a labor violation in both California and New York. Many upvotes to the Redditor that turns the admins in." Man, those guys are dicks.
- kwyjibo 16y agoThey don't have any money to pay the interns (http://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/c7vdo/call_for_interns/c0qqfoe http://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/c7vdo/call_for_interns...) , but have money for 2 offices and money to hire a lawyer to check if their internships are legal.