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it's a basic right to spend money without being tracked. No it's not. I very much want there to be a way to spend money anonymously, but I can't frame that as

it's a basic right to spend money without being tracked. No it's not. I very much want there to be a way to spend money anonymously, but I can't frame that as a 'basic right'.

67726e 10y ago
One could argue it's inherent in a right to privacy.
- matthewmacleod 10y ago
  I'm just not sure you can construct a coherent argument around that though. Obviously a seller isn't obligated to accept cash; is there a suggestion that we should legally require sellers to do so?
  - DennisP 10y ago
    No, but I think an argument can be made that if both parties agree to the transaction, then it is their right to carry it out.
  - mamon 10y ago
    >> a seller isn't obligated to accept cash Isn't he? I don't know how it works in US, but at least in Poland every banknote has printed statement that it is "the legal payment method ". The law institutes a fine for any seller that refuses payment in cash.
    - ghaff 10y ago
      A seller in the US absolutely does not need to accept cash. Certainly most online merchants won't accept cash but there are also examples like onboard purchases on airlines where cash isn't accepted. Relevant statement from US Treasury: https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages...
    - aidenn0 10y ago
      IANAL, but In the US, banknotes specifically reference "debts." For places where you pay after receiving the goods or services (e.g. many restaurants) they must accept cash, but they may refuse to accept cash if you pay prior to receiving goods & services.
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      In the US airplanes (that I've personally flown on) stopped taking cash and are card only onboard. ( example: http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/blog/morning_call/2015/01/hawaii-airline-island-air-stops-accepting-cash.html http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/blog/morning_call/2015/01... Apparently Citibank stopped handling cash in Australia: http://www.businessinsider.com.au/citibank-is-the-first-australian-bank-to-stop-taking-cash-2016-11 http://www.businessinsider.com.au/citibank-is-the-first-aust... (not sure how that works out) A coffee shop in Maryland stopped taking cash after several robberies https://consumerist.com/2017/02/03/sick-of-being-robbed-coffee-shop-goes-cash-free/ https://consumerist.com/2017/02/03/sick-of-being-robbed-coff... Salad chain Sweetgreen also stopped taking cash https://consumerist.com/2016/12/22/seeking-sweetgreen-salad-dont-bother-bringing-cash/ https://consumerist.com/2016/12/22/seeking-sweetgreen-salad-... Also most landlords won't accept cash. There's others, but that's just off the top of my head. I've been in card-only situations before.
rvense 10y ago
It is necessary for a free society that citizens are able to engage in economic transations without asking the permission of an unaccountable private entity. It is not in the interest of a free, fair, and just society to give such an entity the power to tax and control transactions at their leisure.
anigbrowl 10y ago
Do you mean, within an existing legal framework? Then yeah, but clearly our existing legal frameworks are failing in important ways so start thinking about what rights you actually want rather than what you think you can get.
dredmorbius 10y ago
It's a form of association and assembly. Both of which are considered legal rights in US and other jurisdictions, with the proviso that they are conducted peaceably.
c22 10y ago
If you consider money to be a form of speech (I don't but it's been successfully argued in US case law) then I'd argue it is a right as I'd argue availability of anonymity is a prerequisite of free speech.
- runeks 10y ago
  Whenever one makes a purchase, the price structure of the good that was purchased changes, and in the case of goods/assets that have a yield, it also changes its interest rate structure. This is information being propagated from the consumer to the merchant, via the price system, using money. So while the act of exchanging money for goods is not information in and of itself, as speech is, this act results in the propagation of relevant information from consumers to merchants to producers.

it's a basic right to spend money without being tracked. No it's not. I very much want there to be a way to spend money anonymously, but I can't frame that as a 'basic right'.

67726e 10y ago

One could argue it's inherent in a right to privacy.

matthewmacleod 10y ago
I'm just not sure you can construct a coherent argument around that though. Obviously a seller isn't obligated to accept cash; is there a suggestion that we should legally require sellers to do so?
- DennisP 10y ago
  No, but I think an argument can be made that if both parties agree to the transaction, then it is their right to carry it out.
- mamon 10y ago
  >> a seller isn't obligated to accept cash Isn't he? I don't know how it works in US, but at least in Poland every banknote has printed statement that it is "the legal payment method ". The law institutes a fine for any seller that refuses payment in cash.
  - ghaff 10y ago
    A seller in the US absolutely does not need to accept cash. Certainly most online merchants won't accept cash but there are also examples like onboard purchases on airlines where cash isn't accepted. Relevant statement from US Treasury: https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages...
  - aidenn0 10y ago
    IANAL, but In the US, banknotes specifically reference "debts." For places where you pay after receiving the goods or services (e.g. many restaurants) they must accept cash, but they may refuse to accept cash if you pay prior to receiving goods & services.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    In the US airplanes (that I've personally flown on) stopped taking cash and are card only onboard. ( example: http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/blog/morning_call/2015/01/hawaii-airline-island-air-stops-accepting-cash.html http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/blog/morning_call/2015/01... Apparently Citibank stopped handling cash in Australia: http://www.businessinsider.com.au/citibank-is-the-first-australian-bank-to-stop-taking-cash-2016-11 http://www.businessinsider.com.au/citibank-is-the-first-aust... (not sure how that works out) A coffee shop in Maryland stopped taking cash after several robberies https://consumerist.com/2017/02/03/sick-of-being-robbed-coffee-shop-goes-cash-free/ https://consumerist.com/2017/02/03/sick-of-being-robbed-coff... Salad chain Sweetgreen also stopped taking cash https://consumerist.com/2016/12/22/seeking-sweetgreen-salad-dont-bother-bringing-cash/ https://consumerist.com/2016/12/22/seeking-sweetgreen-salad-... Also most landlords won't accept cash. There's others, but that's just off the top of my head. I've been in card-only situations before.

rvense 10y ago

It is necessary for a free society that citizens are able to engage in economic transations without asking the permission of an unaccountable private entity. It is not in the interest of a free, fair, and just society to give such an entity the power to tax and control transactions at their leisure.

anigbrowl 10y ago

Do you mean, within an existing legal framework? Then yeah, but clearly our existing legal frameworks are failing in important ways so start thinking about what rights you actually want rather than what you think you can get.

dredmorbius 10y ago

It's a form of association and assembly. Both of which are considered legal rights in US and other jurisdictions, with the proviso that they are conducted peaceably.

c22 10y ago

If you consider money to be a form of speech (I don't but it's been successfully argued in US case law) then I'd argue it is a right as I'd argue availability of anonymity is a prerequisite of free speech.

runeks 10y ago
Whenever one makes a purchase, the price structure of the good that was purchased changes, and in the case of goods/assets that have a yield, it also changes its interest rate structure. This is information being propagated from the consumer to the merchant, via the price system, using money. So while the act of exchanging money for goods is not information in and of itself, as speech is, this act results in the propagation of relevant information from consumers to merchants to producers.