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> I am sad to say that after living here for a while, I agree that a free press could whip uneducated masses into an unproductive frenzy That's astonishing. Yo

by muglug 10y ago

> I am sad to say that after living here for a while, I agree that a free press could whip uneducated masses into an unproductive frenzy That's astonishing. You think so little of your fellow countrymen that you don't trust them to receive information from sources other than the government? Look at other countries that have introduced freedom of speech laws. I cannot recall countries being destroyed by such unproductive frenzies, but I do remember corrupt politicians being forced out of power, and people standing up for the rights of individuals, etc.

PakG1 10y ago
Why do you assume they are my countrymen? I said I'm Canadian. Furthermore, I point to where fake news and alternative facts have led the US. Freedom of the press is a double-edged sword that is only wielded properly in the hands of the just and intelligent. I am sad that I have this conclusion these days.
- muglug 10y ago
  Fake news and alternative facts have not led the US anywhere. Donald Trump had no endorsements from any nationally-available newspaper. Newspapers across the US were full of unflattering reports about both candidates, and ultimately Clinton's unfavourability in the swing states meant a lot of people stayed home. Now the press is as vital as ever – Trump's favourability ratings are at historic lows, and there are countless stories about the disarray in the White House. That's good (from my perspective). None of that would be possible in China, as there's no press to hold leaders to account.
- euyyn 10y ago
  Venezuela had freedom of the press when the populist Chavez grasped power. Guess the first thing he did. In the US, the populist Trump is trying to get the same effect with the "the press is all lies, trust only what I say" rhetoric. The antidote to lies is education, and it's not in the interest of an authoritarian regime to educate its population to the point where they can question the state's propaganda. So the only way out to freedom seems to be to start with independent (even if illegal) press.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
Arizhel 10y ago
>You think so little of your fellow countrymen that you don't trust them to receive information from sources other than the government? He clearly said that he was Canadian. I'm American, and my countrymen just elected someone who's clearly incompetent to the highest office in the land (and in the primary elections before, the other party chose someone who's clearly corrupt as the opposition candidate). I don't really trust my countrymen either. >Look at other countries that have introduced freedom of speech laws. I cannot recall countries being destroyed by such unproductive frenzies, but I do remember corrupt politicians being forced out of power, and people standing up for the rights of individuals, etc. Have you forgotten the Arab Spring? That wasn't really from free speech laws per se, but it was fueled by social media which acts the same. A bunch of dictators were forced out of power or killed, and then the people proceeded to elect Islamic extremists to power, as in Egypt where they elected the Muslim Brotherhood, who then proceeded to oppress minorities. Libya is a complete mess now, and Syria has been going through a brutal civil war for over 5 years now. Those countries were better off under their previous dictatorships. I think all evidence points to democratic systems and freedom of press and information being a very bad thing in places where the populace is uneducated and incapable of electing decent leaders. It isn't even working very well in America. It works great in places like Norway and Switzerland though, places where the populace is highly educated.
- muglug 10y ago
  > Have you forgotten the Arab Spring? That wasn't really from free speech laws per se, but it was fueled by social media which acts the same. No, it was fuelled by decades of oppression by leaders propped up by Western powers, most especially the oppression of Islamic elements that had nevertheless enjoyed widespread public support. To ascribe that failure to "freedom of speech" is, it seems, a gross violation of reality.

by muglug 10y ago

PakG1 10y ago

Why do you assume they are my countrymen? I said I'm Canadian. Furthermore, I point to where fake news and alternative facts have led the US. Freedom of the press is a double-edged sword that is only wielded properly in the hands of the just and intelligent. I am sad that I have this conclusion these days.

muglug 10y ago
Fake news and alternative facts have not led the US anywhere. Donald Trump had no endorsements from any nationally-available newspaper. Newspapers across the US were full of unflattering reports about both candidates, and ultimately Clinton's unfavourability in the swing states meant a lot of people stayed home. Now the press is as vital as ever – Trump's favourability ratings are at historic lows, and there are countless stories about the disarray in the White House. That's good (from my perspective). None of that would be possible in China, as there's no press to hold leaders to account.
euyyn 10y ago
Venezuela had freedom of the press when the populist Chavez grasped power. Guess the first thing he did. In the US, the populist Trump is trying to get the same effect with the "the press is all lies, trust only what I say" rhetoric. The antidote to lies is education, and it's not in the interest of an authoritarian regime to educate its population to the point where they can question the state's propaganda. So the only way out to freedom seems to be to start with independent (even if illegal) press.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

Arizhel 10y ago

>You think so little of your fellow countrymen that you don't trust them to receive information from sources other than the government? He clearly said that he was Canadian. I'm American, and my countrymen just elected someone who's clearly incompetent to the highest office in the land (and in the primary elections before, the other party chose someone who's clearly corrupt as the opposition candidate). I don't really trust my countrymen either. >Look at other countries that have introduced freedom of speech laws. I cannot recall countries being destroyed by such unproductive frenzies, but I do remember corrupt politicians being forced out of power, and people standing up for the rights of individuals, etc. Have you forgotten the Arab Spring? That wasn't really from free speech laws per se, but it was fueled by social media which acts the same. A bunch of dictators were forced out of power or killed, and then the people proceeded to elect Islamic extremists to power, as in Egypt where they elected the Muslim Brotherhood, who then proceeded to oppress minorities. Libya is a complete mess now, and Syria has been going through a brutal civil war for over 5 years now. Those countries were better off under their previous dictatorships. I think all evidence points to democratic systems and freedom of press and information being a very bad thing in places where the populace is uneducated and incapable of electing decent leaders. It isn't even working very well in America. It works great in places like Norway and Switzerland though, places where the populace is highly educated.

muglug 10y ago
> Have you forgotten the Arab Spring? That wasn't really from free speech laws per se, but it was fueled by social media which acts the same. No, it was fuelled by decades of oppression by leaders propped up by Western powers, most especially the oppression of Islamic elements that had nevertheless enjoyed widespread public support. To ascribe that failure to "freedom of speech" is, it seems, a gross violation of reality.