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> The entire point of the American justice system is to make people suffer... It's interesting that the comparitively religious-leaning US has a more punishmen

> The entire point of the American justice system is to make people suffer... It's interesting that the comparitively religious-leaning US has a more punishment-centric penal system, whereas the comparatively secular Europe leans towards rehabilitation. Considering the "vengeance is mine" thing and the Christian forgiveness thing you would have thought it would be the other way around.

Senderman 10y ago
I was raised Catholic•, in Ireland. The entire narrative is built around the idea of going to heaven while ~all the bad people~ burn forever elsewhere. From what I can see, in the context of the church, "Forgiveness" is a means of keeping control over people who feel guilty/scared. So, I'm not surprised by the comparison you noticed. • Disclaimer: Clearly, I'm still more than a little bitter about it.
- samirillian 10y ago
  The book of Revelations includes a part where the "elect" call out for the blood of the sinners. And Nietzsche references church fathers rejoicing at a similar thought. Tangentially, Genealogy of Morals is a good resource for wrapping one's head around these kinds of barbarities.
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
That bit has always surprised me - not just in the prison systems, but things like a safety net and healthcare for the poor.
- gdwatson 10y ago
  On the safety net, it's worth remembering that Christian societies have historically had other institutions than government into which to channel their collective efforts. The notion that all "the things we choose to do together" are the sphere of government is a recent one in the West.
maxxxxx 10y ago
The Christian god is not exactly forgiving. If you don't behave well you will be punished for eternity and there is no way to get out of hell. So I think it makes sense for a Christian leaning country to be ok with punishment.
- FreezerburnV 10y ago
  Normally, I don't tend to get involved in HN talks about religion/Christianity, but I'm going to make an exception this time. As someone who is a Christian (I define as a "follower of Christ", not just as someone who follows some set of rules) I actually find the common misconception that "behaving badly" getting you thrown in Hell or "behaving well" gets you a ticket into Heaven to be one of the greatest, and saddest, misconceptions about what Christianity is. In fact, there is actually only a single requirement for getting into Heaven: deciding to accept a freely-given gift of forgiveness by deciding to follow Jesus. Before that point nothing you do can get you into Heaven, after that point nothing you do can take it away from you. It has absolutely nothing to do with doing good things or bad things, and I really, really wish this wasn't such a common misconception, because the reality is much more beautiful and simpler than that. Also saying that God isn't forgiving is an entirely other topic that means you haven't paid much attention to the Bible. The amount of times he decides to not destroy his (highly belligerent) people in the Old Testament is ridiculous, and the efforts put forward to grant forgiveness to anyone in the New Testament are unheard of in any other religious teaching. Which I'm glad about, because I am certainly a flawed, screwed up person that would never be able to earn my way into any kind of good afterlife otherwise. Sorry for the rant/preaching/whatever. Feel free to downvote me or whatever for getting into something off topic for HN, it's internet points so it doesn't matter much to me. I just really felt a need to point out some common misconceptions about something I deeply care about.
  - Domenic_S 10y ago
    > after that point nothing you do can take it away from you Eternal security is a Calvinist view that is far from universally held.
    - 10y ago

Senderman 10y ago

I was raised Catholic•, in Ireland. The entire narrative is built around the idea of going to heaven while ~all the bad people~ burn forever elsewhere. From what I can see, in the context of the church, "Forgiveness" is a means of keeping control over people who feel guilty/scared. So, I'm not surprised by the comparison you noticed. • Disclaimer: Clearly, I'm still more than a little bitter about it.

samirillian 10y ago
The book of Revelations includes a part where the "elect" call out for the blood of the sinners. And Nietzsche references church fathers rejoicing at a similar thought. Tangentially, Genealogy of Morals is a good resource for wrapping one's head around these kinds of barbarities.

Broken_Hippo 10y ago

That bit has always surprised me - not just in the prison systems, but things like a safety net and healthcare for the poor.

gdwatson 10y ago
On the safety net, it's worth remembering that Christian societies have historically had other institutions than government into which to channel their collective efforts. The notion that all "the things we choose to do together" are the sphere of government is a recent one in the West.

maxxxxx 10y ago

The Christian god is not exactly forgiving. If you don't behave well you will be punished for eternity and there is no way to get out of hell. So I think it makes sense for a Christian leaning country to be ok with punishment.

FreezerburnV 10y ago
Normally, I don't tend to get involved in HN talks about religion/Christianity, but I'm going to make an exception this time. As someone who is a Christian (I define as a "follower of Christ", not just as someone who follows some set of rules) I actually find the common misconception that "behaving badly" getting you thrown in Hell or "behaving well" gets you a ticket into Heaven to be one of the greatest, and saddest, misconceptions about what Christianity is. In fact, there is actually only a single requirement for getting into Heaven: deciding to accept a freely-given gift of forgiveness by deciding to follow Jesus. Before that point nothing you do can get you into Heaven, after that point nothing you do can take it away from you. It has absolutely nothing to do with doing good things or bad things, and I really, really wish this wasn't such a common misconception, because the reality is much more beautiful and simpler than that. Also saying that God isn't forgiving is an entirely other topic that means you haven't paid much attention to the Bible. The amount of times he decides to not destroy his (highly belligerent) people in the Old Testament is ridiculous, and the efforts put forward to grant forgiveness to anyone in the New Testament are unheard of in any other religious teaching. Which I'm glad about, because I am certainly a flawed, screwed up person that would never be able to earn my way into any kind of good afterlife otherwise. Sorry for the rant/preaching/whatever. Feel free to downvote me or whatever for getting into something off topic for HN, it's internet points so it doesn't matter much to me. I just really felt a need to point out some common misconceptions about something I deeply care about.
- Domenic_S 10y ago
  > after that point nothing you do can take it away from you Eternal security is a Calvinist view that is far from universally held.
  - 10y ago