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Do these people not think about how cruel solitary confinement is? According to the article: "Researchers believe it damages the body and brain as well, but t

Do these people not think about how cruel solitary confinement is? According to the article: "Researchers believe it damages the body and brain as well, but they can't test this hypothesis, because what we do to prisoners every day—house them in prolonged isolation—is illegal to do to laboratory animals. It is against the law to treat rats the way we treat people in solitary." Yup. That's right. Illegal for lab rats. Obviously they know it is harmful. The entire point of the American justice system is to make people suffer for the crimes they have done, however, and to do so in the cheapest manner possible. And this is with some public support. It is "tough on crime" and gets folks elected. Somewhere out there is an interview with a Norwegian prison director. His speech to new inmates says something along the lines of: *In Norway, we don't have life imprisonment nor the death penalty. Which means that one day you are getting out and might be my neighbor. I'm invested in making sure your time here is good so that when you get out, I'll be happy to have you as my neighbor". I think this is the sort of attitude we (Americans) should adopt. I think this would make a bigger difference than imagining the pain of solitary.

richmarr 10y ago
> The entire point of the American justice system is to make people suffer... It's interesting that the comparitively religious-leaning US has a more punishment-centric penal system, whereas the comparatively secular Europe leans towards rehabilitation. Considering the "vengeance is mine" thing and the Christian forgiveness thing you would have thought it would be the other way around.
- Senderman 10y ago
  I was raised Catholic•, in Ireland. The entire narrative is built around the idea of going to heaven while ~all the bad people~ burn forever elsewhere. From what I can see, in the context of the church, "Forgiveness" is a means of keeping control over people who feel guilty/scared. So, I'm not surprised by the comparison you noticed. • Disclaimer: Clearly, I'm still more than a little bitter about it.
  - samirillian 10y ago
    The book of Revelations includes a part where the "elect" call out for the blood of the sinners. And Nietzsche references church fathers rejoicing at a similar thought. Tangentially, Genealogy of Morals is a good resource for wrapping one's head around these kinds of barbarities.
- Broken_Hippo 10y ago
  That bit has always surprised me - not just in the prison systems, but things like a safety net and healthcare for the poor.
  - gdwatson 10y ago
    On the safety net, it's worth remembering that Christian societies have historically had other institutions than government into which to channel their collective efforts. The notion that all "the things we choose to do together" are the sphere of government is a recent one in the West.
- maxxxxx 10y ago
  The Christian god is not exactly forgiving. If you don't behave well you will be punished for eternity and there is no way to get out of hell. So I think it makes sense for a Christian leaning country to be ok with punishment.
  - FreezerburnV 10y ago
    Normally, I don't tend to get involved in HN talks about religion/Christianity, but I'm going to make an exception this time. As someone who is a Christian (I define as a "follower of Christ", not just as someone who follows some set of rules) I actually find the common misconception that "behaving badly" getting you thrown in Hell or "behaving well" gets you a ticket into Heaven to be one of the greatest, and saddest, misconceptions about what Christianity is. In fact, there is actually only a single requirement for getting into Heaven: deciding to accept a freely-given gift of forgiveness by deciding to follow Jesus. Before that point nothing you do can get you into Heaven, after that point nothing you do can take it away from you. It has absolutely nothing to do with doing good things or bad things, and I really, really wish this wasn't such a common misconception, because the reality is much more beautiful and simpler than that. Also saying that God isn't forgiving is an entirely other topic that means you haven't paid much attention to the Bible. The amount of times he decides to not destroy his (highly belligerent) people in the Old Testament is ridiculous, and the efforts put forward to grant forgiveness to anyone in the New Testament are unheard of in any other religious teaching. Which I'm glad about, because I am certainly a flawed, screwed up person that would never be able to earn my way into any kind of good afterlife otherwise. Sorry for the rant/preaching/whatever. Feel free to downvote me or whatever for getting into something off topic for HN, it's internet points so it doesn't matter much to me. I just really felt a need to point out some common misconceptions about something I deeply care about.
    - Domenic_S 10y ago
      > after that point nothing you do can take it away from you Eternal security is a Calvinist view that is far from universally held.
      - 10y ago
ekianjo 10y ago
There is a minority of criminals who have serious mental problems and who are likely to commit crime again as soon as they are out. Are you confortable with that?
- jake314159 10y ago
  Shouldn't someone with serious mental problems be in a hospital not a prison?
  - praptak 10y ago
    Obiously they should. The article hints at the sad reason they aren't: "...economical, not compassionate, reasons...". It's just cheaper to lock them up.
    - soundwave106 10y ago
      Housing even non-solitary confinement prisoners is pretty expensive though. Average cost is about $30K a year per prisoner in the United States (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/nyregion/citys-annual-cost-per-inmate-is-nearly-168000-study-says.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/nyregion/citys-annual-cost...). Some areas of course are way more expensive: In NYC, it's $168K per prisoner per year apparently. I think part of the issue here is that, in the past, mental health institutions itself had their own huge issues. There was a large movement to move away from mental health institutions, at least in the US, in the 1970s as a result (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation). The unfortunate consequence is that, instead of community-based mental health systems rising up to address the wrongs of the mental health institution, as envisioned by the de-institutionalization movement, the prison has ended up somewhat taken its place (https://thesocietypages.org/sociologylens/2012/07/03/deinstitutionalization-and-the-criminal-justice-system-an-unfortunate-correlation/ https://thesocietypages.org/sociologylens/2012/07/03/deinsti...).
      - gozur88 10y ago
        >I think part of the issue here is that, in the past, mental health institutions itself had their own huge issues. There was a large movement to move away from mental health institutions, at least in the US, in the 1970s as a result (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation). There was a new generation of drugs people thought would end the need for institutions. I don't think they even considered the possibility people with mental illnesses would, in a state of mental soundness, decide not to take the drugs necessary to keep them there. There was also a bit too much optimism when it came to assessing the effectiveness of the drugs.

richmarr 10y ago

> The entire point of the American justice system is to make people suffer... It's interesting that the comparitively religious-leaning US has a more punishment-centric penal system, whereas the comparatively secular Europe leans towards rehabilitation. Considering the "vengeance is mine" thing and the Christian forgiveness thing you would have thought it would be the other way around.

Senderman 10y ago
I was raised Catholic•, in Ireland. The entire narrative is built around the idea of going to heaven while ~all the bad people~ burn forever elsewhere. From what I can see, in the context of the church, "Forgiveness" is a means of keeping control over people who feel guilty/scared. So, I'm not surprised by the comparison you noticed. • Disclaimer: Clearly, I'm still more than a little bitter about it.
- samirillian 10y ago
  The book of Revelations includes a part where the "elect" call out for the blood of the sinners. And Nietzsche references church fathers rejoicing at a similar thought. Tangentially, Genealogy of Morals is a good resource for wrapping one's head around these kinds of barbarities.
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
That bit has always surprised me - not just in the prison systems, but things like a safety net and healthcare for the poor.
- gdwatson 10y ago
  On the safety net, it's worth remembering that Christian societies have historically had other institutions than government into which to channel their collective efforts. The notion that all "the things we choose to do together" are the sphere of government is a recent one in the West.
maxxxxx 10y ago
The Christian god is not exactly forgiving. If you don't behave well you will be punished for eternity and there is no way to get out of hell. So I think it makes sense for a Christian leaning country to be ok with punishment.
- FreezerburnV 10y ago
  Normally, I don't tend to get involved in HN talks about religion/Christianity, but I'm going to make an exception this time. As someone who is a Christian (I define as a "follower of Christ", not just as someone who follows some set of rules) I actually find the common misconception that "behaving badly" getting you thrown in Hell or "behaving well" gets you a ticket into Heaven to be one of the greatest, and saddest, misconceptions about what Christianity is. In fact, there is actually only a single requirement for getting into Heaven: deciding to accept a freely-given gift of forgiveness by deciding to follow Jesus. Before that point nothing you do can get you into Heaven, after that point nothing you do can take it away from you. It has absolutely nothing to do with doing good things or bad things, and I really, really wish this wasn't such a common misconception, because the reality is much more beautiful and simpler than that. Also saying that God isn't forgiving is an entirely other topic that means you haven't paid much attention to the Bible. The amount of times he decides to not destroy his (highly belligerent) people in the Old Testament is ridiculous, and the efforts put forward to grant forgiveness to anyone in the New Testament are unheard of in any other religious teaching. Which I'm glad about, because I am certainly a flawed, screwed up person that would never be able to earn my way into any kind of good afterlife otherwise. Sorry for the rant/preaching/whatever. Feel free to downvote me or whatever for getting into something off topic for HN, it's internet points so it doesn't matter much to me. I just really felt a need to point out some common misconceptions about something I deeply care about.
  - Domenic_S 10y ago
    > after that point nothing you do can take it away from you Eternal security is a Calvinist view that is far from universally held.
    - 10y ago

ekianjo 10y ago

There is a minority of criminals who have serious mental problems and who are likely to commit crime again as soon as they are out. Are you confortable with that?

jake314159 10y ago
Shouldn't someone with serious mental problems be in a hospital not a prison?
- praptak 10y ago
  Obiously they should. The article hints at the sad reason they aren't: "...economical, not compassionate, reasons...". It's just cheaper to lock them up.
  - soundwave106 10y ago
    Housing even non-solitary confinement prisoners is pretty expensive though. Average cost is about $30K a year per prisoner in the United States (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/nyregion/citys-annual-cost-per-inmate-is-nearly-168000-study-says.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/nyregion/citys-annual-cost...). Some areas of course are way more expensive: In NYC, it's $168K per prisoner per year apparently. I think part of the issue here is that, in the past, mental health institutions itself had their own huge issues. There was a large movement to move away from mental health institutions, at least in the US, in the 1970s as a result (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation). The unfortunate consequence is that, instead of community-based mental health systems rising up to address the wrongs of the mental health institution, as envisioned by the de-institutionalization movement, the prison has ended up somewhat taken its place (https://thesocietypages.org/sociologylens/2012/07/03/deinstitutionalization-and-the-criminal-justice-system-an-unfortunate-correlation/ https://thesocietypages.org/sociologylens/2012/07/03/deinsti...).
    - gozur88 10y ago
      >I think part of the issue here is that, in the past, mental health institutions itself had their own huge issues. There was a large movement to move away from mental health institutions, at least in the US, in the 1970s as a result (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation). There was a new generation of drugs people thought would end the need for institutions. I don't think they even considered the possibility people with mental illnesses would, in a state of mental soundness, decide not to take the drugs necessary to keep them there. There was also a bit too much optimism when it came to assessing the effectiveness of the drugs.