11 ms·

Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

115 points by pmcpinto 10y ago

ploggingdev 10y ago
> the federal government and about half of the states in the country began restricting their use of solitary. These efforts gained bipartisan support for economical, not compassionate, reasons That is the most telling line about how the Government thinks. Do these people not think about how cruel solitary confinement is? The best way to make people understand these cruel practices is to imagine themselves in solitary confinement. Would you want that? Obviously no, so why would you wish it or allow it on somebody else? Slightly tangential, but people who are openly racist or hate certain religions, ask them to imagine themselves as the people they hate. The recent elections, and articles such as these are reminders that humanity is still very medieval. Sad!
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- Broken_Hippo 10y ago
  Do these people not think about how cruel solitary confinement is? According to the article: "Researchers believe it damages the body and brain as well, but they can't test this hypothesis, because what we do to prisoners every day—house them in prolonged isolation—is illegal to do to laboratory animals. It is against the law to treat rats the way we treat people in solitary." Yup. That's right. Illegal for lab rats. Obviously they know it is harmful. The entire point of the American justice system is to make people suffer for the crimes they have done, however, and to do so in the cheapest manner possible. And this is with some public support. It is "tough on crime" and gets folks elected. Somewhere out there is an interview with a Norwegian prison director. His speech to new inmates says something along the lines of: *In Norway, we don't have life imprisonment nor the death penalty. Which means that one day you are getting out and might be my neighbor. I'm invested in making sure your time here is good so that when you get out, I'll be happy to have you as my neighbor". I think this is the sort of attitude we (Americans) should adopt. I think this would make a bigger difference than imagining the pain of solitary.
  - richmarr 10y ago
    > The entire point of the American justice system is to make people suffer... It's interesting that the comparitively religious-leaning US has a more punishment-centric penal system, whereas the comparatively secular Europe leans towards rehabilitation. Considering the "vengeance is mine" thing and the Christian forgiveness thing you would have thought it would be the other way around.
    - Senderman 10y ago
      I was raised Catholic•, in Ireland. The entire narrative is built around the idea of going to heaven while ~all the bad people~ burn forever elsewhere. From what I can see, in the context of the church, "Forgiveness" is a means of keeping control over people who feel guilty/scared. So, I'm not surprised by the comparison you noticed. • Disclaimer: Clearly, I'm still more than a little bitter about it.
      - samirillian 10y ago
        The book of Revelations includes a part where the "elect" call out for the blood of the sinners. And Nietzsche references church fathers rejoicing at a similar thought. Tangentially, Genealogy of Morals is a good resource for wrapping one's head around these kinds of barbarities.
    - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
      That bit has always surprised me - not just in the prison systems, but things like a safety net and healthcare for the poor.
      - gdwatson 10y ago
        On the safety net, it's worth remembering that Christian societies have historically had other institutions than government into which to channel their collective efforts. The notion that all "the things we choose to do together" are the sphere of government is a recent one in the West.
    - 10y ago
- IsaacL 10y ago
  Do you know how much people suffer if their house is broken into, if they are robbed at gunpoint, if they are raped, etc? Not just the direct harm, but the ongoing psychological harm?
  - jamescostian 10y ago
    That harm is truly awful. But I believe Gandhi said something like "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind." If you don't care about the people in solitary, why not at least care about their psychological state once they get out? Imagine someone who was in solitary being freed, and then deciding to harm some people. Don't you think the person from solitary, who has had a bunch of psychological issues from solitary, would be even worse than someone who hasn't been in solitary? P.S. your original Iron Man framing makes me want to respond in kind with a strawman: imagine a person hooked on cigarettes goes to prison for a crime they didn't even commit, and then they are caught with cigarettes and put in solitary. I'd say that's also truly awful
  - mfringel 10y ago
    Will the perpetrator's suffering make the victim un-robbed?
    - p1esk 10y ago
      It might make some victims feel better, which can be considered a form of a moral compensation.
      - mfringel 10y ago
        It might.... under what circumstances? some victims.... which ones? can be considered.... by who?
        p1esk 10y ago
        Well, I would've certainly felt better knowing that the guy who robbed me got punished.
- peteretep 10y ago
  I'm a bleeding heart liberal, but: > Do these people not think > about how cruel solitary > confinement is? If it was effective, and its use wasn't at a guard's whim, I wouldn't really care. But it's not effective, and there doesn't appear to be proper oversight, and that's what upsets me.
  - cooper12 10y ago
    Sorry, I don't care what you label yourself as, but if you think it's justifiable to use cruel punishment as long as its "effective", you might be a bit morally defective. Torture is a human rights violation.
    - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
      Torture has historically been thought to be the use of pain to coerce. Lets admit it, we use all sorts of pressures to coerce people. We can't label them all as 'torture'. Don't get me wrong, I think solitary is wrong. And if we redefine 'torture' to mean 'permanently disfiguring a person mentally or physically for coercive purposes' then it neatly fits.
    - peteretep 10y ago
      You think a punishment is bad when it crosses a certain arbitrary severity threshold. I think a punishment is bad when it's ineffective, its application doesn't benefit society as a whole, and when there's no oversight. A morality that's consistent, dependable, and based on greater good to society is rather more useful than one based on arbitrary feels.
- SilasX 10y ago
  I don't want to be imprisoned, so should I oppose all imprisonment? Edit: sorry if that came off as blunt, but this seems like a legit problem with your application of the Golden Rule. Could you reformulate it, or explain why nothing undesirable should ever happen to anyone "because you wouldn't like it"?
- MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
  Have you ever noticed that "cruel and unusual punishment", the famous standard for what will be considered the acceptable limit of legal punishment, in fact implicitly sanctions cruelty in our legal system? If severe cruelty is the norm then it is considered just, indeed even fair and necessary, that that cruelty be normalized and extended to all those under the punitive regime. There is a deep vein of cruelty in American history. I personally believe it is significantly rooted in Puritan theology - self-denial and self-abnegation are both forms of self-inflicted cruelty, and if one is cruel to oneself, both in daily practice and in the broader sense of ones philosophical beliefs and worldview (i.e. believing you are a sinner, believing you are in a state of perpetual spiritual disgrace), then cruelty becomes a foundational principle of your relationship with the world and other people.
- slavik81 10y ago
  > The best way to make peopleunderstand these cruel practices is to imagine themselves in solitary confinement. Would you want that? Obviously no... That's not effective unless people actually understand what solitary confinement is. I have zero desire to spend my time living with a whole bunch of criminals and don't find the thought of being alone to be particularly scary. I doubt I'd even miss people for at least a month. Give me a few books, a bed, desk, stationary and a toilet and it would feel like a writer's retreat. It was only after reading accounts from people in solitary that I discovered that you get none of that. Just an empty room with a hole in the floor. The term 'solitary confinement' doesn't communicate anything beyond the fact that you're alone, but the reality is that they take a lot more than social interaction away.
  - gozur88 10y ago
    Yeah, it's not just solitary confinement. It's also, in some prisons, the complete lack of intellectual stimulation. You're locked in a box with nothing at all to occupy your mind - no books, television, radio, computer, newspaper, human interaction... nothing. There isn't even anything to write with or on. Prisoners start smearing shit on the walls just to relieve the monotony.
- yeahsurebut888 10y ago
  Personally, I see it as "the most telling line how the people let the Government behave." Speaking up peacefully does work; SOPA was halted by coordinated effort. But we spent our days coordinating around the economic activity dictated to us by the "wise old masters of commerce" instead. You don't want them behaving like that? Don't let them.
andyjohnson0 10y ago
"There are still significant variations within Europe in the maximum permissible duration for solitary confinement allowed as punishment. In Belgium, eight days is the maximum permissible duration, whereas Finland allows 14 days; Poland, England, and Wales allow 28; France and Estonia allow 45; and Ireland allows up to 60. But overall, the dangers of solitary confinement have been recognized." [1] [1] http://www.brownpoliticalreview.org/2015/11/beyond-solitary-confinement-lessons-from-european-prison-reform/ http://www.brownpoliticalreview.org/2015/11/beyond-solitary-...
- ptaipale 10y ago
  I wonder where that quote has collected its data. At least in Finland prisoners may be isolated from other prisoners for specific reasons (like waiting until the drug cache comes out of the digestive system the normal way), but not as a punishment, and not for more than 7 days.
- fsiefken 10y ago
  Regarding Sweden, does Breivik's prison sentence and stay (solitary confinement) constitute torture? "1 March 2017, the Court of Appeals upheld part of Brevik`s appeal that Article 3 of the convention on human rights had been breached, that he has been subjected to degrading treatment but that his solitary confinement did not violate Breivik's rights" (source: wikipedia) Or what about the solitary confinement of Gottfrid Svartholm, co-founder of ThePirateBay? https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/the-swedes-have-the-pirate-bays-co-founder-in-solitary-confinement https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/the-swedes-have-the-pirat... Regarding The Netherlands, the killer of Theo Van Gogh, Mohammed B., is also held in solitary confinement. Do all of these constitute torture or an inhumane treatment?
  - olfox 10y ago
    Breivik is Norwegian.
  - bouvin 10y ago
    Breivik would be in Norway. He is not completely isolated btw, as he has visitors (IIRC, from an organisation that normally visits the lonely or elderly — he is not permitted to choose his own visitors).
entropyneur 10y ago
On the intellectual level I have absolutely no reason to doubt the scientific evidence or the countless accounts of people who were subjected to solitary imprisonment and describe it as torture and worst thing that ever happened to them. I remember a documentary (probably NatGeo's "America's hardest prisons") episode where a violent and seemingly fearless thug was reduced to a crying baby by 2 weeks of solitary confinement. Yet, for some reason I am completely unable to empathize with it. And it's not for general lack of empathy either - I am quite horrified by pretty much everything else I learn about the experience of prisoners. But even after reading this article I feel like I'd choose solitary over sharing a cell with others. I suspect that points to some peculiarity/defect in my psyche. Does anyone else feel the same way?
- interfixus 10y ago
  Absolutely. I am sociable enough, but given the choice, I'll take solitude any day.
  - s_kilk 10y ago
    You literally have no idea what you're talking about.
    - fiatjaf 10y ago
      Neither you, my friend.
    - interfixus 10y ago
      How do you know?
  - bambax 10y ago
    I would tend to agree with both comments but I think it's because we don't know what we're talking about. We all have experienced being in a closed space with people we don't know or like, but we usually have never experienced complete isolation for extended periods of time. I need lots of time alone, but being absolutely alone for two weeks and having zero interaction with anyone or even an animal or a plant? That's something else entirely.
olfox 10y ago
Mindfield, the new series by vsauce, tackled this in its first episode, which recently became free to watch. It was an interesting watch, although I couldn't really take the experiment seriously after the segment with the former inmate who had spent way more time confined in a cell with even less stimulation than the one Michael was about to enter. Anyhow, prolonged isolation(>3 days, maybe less) and willful disruption of circadian rhythms should definitely be considered torture. Also, doing this to people who will reenter society is just so shortsighted and dumb, regardless of the total lack of morality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqKdEhx-dD4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqKdEhx-dD4
intralizee 10y ago
I had an experience with solitary confinement and I was tormented by it. The memories don't effect me much anymore and I now can write about it. It resulted from a mental break down, causing an arrest which was not justified legally but the officer at the scene was annoyed by me. The charge were eventually dismissed but still haunts me like it would for any person. I'm transgender which is related to the situation; at the time I had troubles communicating what I was going through and an attempt at failing 'x' which caused a wreck. Luckily nobody other than me was injured physically or mentally by the wreck. I was told by other officers & firemen, "I would not be arrested as I had done nothing illegal" but the leading male officer decided to arrest me regardless and I ended up in the place for mentally ill criminals. I either pissed off the officer by asking to speak to the female officer instead when questioned or he had something against me by how I looked. I've never had a mental illness or have been diagnosed with any mental illness or even depression but I somehow ended up on haldol for schizophrenia which was shortly decided a day after the arrest without seeing any medical professional qualified for making such a diagnosis which needs 6 months observation anyway. It all happened in Texas, almost ruined my life and has influenced other events in my life by negligence of others not understanding; leading to discrimination with other things by negligence. I'm trying to pursue some justice for connections to what I've experienced resulting from negligence of others, so I can sleep better but let me now get on to the solitary confinement story. The solitary confinement I was put in (while stripped of all clothes) had a button/speaker system to an supervising law enforcement person. None of the law enforcement in charge of watching would make any indication to sympathy and would say things which would escalate any grief a person communicated even if it was a sane request. Talking by button/speaker you would hear short responses made to sound annoyed and I was told to "get used to this as how am I going to survive when I go to prison" which to this day I cannot understand how messed up a person must be to feel the need to say something like that to a person in the situation I was in. The confinement smelled similar to bleach or some really strong chemical odor, it would make my throat dry and people would be screaming for water. Other inmates in solitary confinement would scream they are Lucifer or that they are on true crime TV with nonsense stuff. There were bars on the floor forming a 2 by 2 square for #1 or #2. Meals would consist of a paper bag containing an apple past it's prime, a milk carton, chips/pretzels and a small sandwich of tuna. So you're stuck in this small space with a camera watching you and no clothes. Eventually I became anxious where I needed to know the time and ended up annoying the guard on duty by repetitively asking for it. I only had to stay in there for close to 2 days, until my lawyer managed to come and get me out of there. Bail was set at 50k which luckily I have parents that paid for it and it was returned to them after the dismissal. Anyway I think it's reasonable for a person to prefer death when experiencing solitary confinement because I would have preferred death to that experience. I really do enjoy life though but going through that was just wow.
jMyles 10y ago
Stories of torture at the hands of the state, in a domestic correctional context, are everywhere. This is a confirmed, observable phenomenon, not subject to much conjecture or doubt. And it's time to smash it. Thinking that some slow, incremental legislative progress is going to fix this problem is pulling a blanket of privilege over eyes and ears. When Washington falls, which it will, we must immediately turn to our states and ensure - by whatever nonviolent means necessary - that they do not fill in the budget vacuum currently filled by a hodgepodge of federal grants and instead close prisons en masse. In the mean time, we need to form pen-pal relationships with prisoners, shame people who decide to work in the prison industry (I know this sounds cruel, but it's less cruel than refraining from doing so), and speak out in square company. Enough is enough.
- alex_hitchins 10y ago
  > shame people who decide to work in the prison industry (I know this sounds cruel, but it's less cruel than refraining from doing so), and speak out in square company. Not everyone working in the prison system is evil. There are good people there wanting to help people.
  - jMyles 10y ago
    Absolutely - I acknowledge that. But at this point, I assert that we need to deprive the system of labor, especially from good people. I think it's a very legitimate form of protest.
    - ars 10y ago
      > But at this point, I assert that we need to deprive the system of labor, especially from good people You are delusional. You want to reform the prison system by only hiring bad people to run it?
      - jMyles 10y ago
        I have expressly said that I don't want to "reform" the prison system. I used the word "smash" - I'm not sure how much further from "reform" you can get. I want prisons gone completely from this land, as they were for most of our history.
virtualwhys 10y ago
Also see: This Blinding Absence of Light[1], true story of an Morrocan coup attempt gone wrong, and the 18 year punishment that ensued. Disturbing and beautiful account; it's amazing what humans can endure, pushing toward the inner light amidst its complete absence. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Blinding_Absence_of_Light https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Blinding_Absence_of_Light
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
makecheck 10y ago
It's insane that prisoners are treated poorly. It's also ridiculous that statistics like "rate of recidivism" do not seem to even consider what effect the incarceration itself had on the offender.
ddingus 10y ago
When can we move to fixing people, not just punishment? Our current system is selfish. The suffering is a show for everyone else. It's supposed to suck. Nobody has a beef with that. But it doesn't have to destroy.

115 points by pmcpinto 10y ago

> the federal government and about half of the states in the country began restricting their use of solitary. These efforts gained bipartisan support for economical, not compassionate, reasons That is the most telling line about how the Government thinks. Do these people not think about how cruel solitary confinement is? The best way to make people understand these cruel practices is to imagine themselves in solitary confinement. Would you want that? Obviously no, so why would you wish it or allow it on somebody else? Slightly tangential, but people who are openly racist or hate certain religions, ask them to imagine themselves as the people they hate. The recent elections, and articles such as these are reminders that humanity is still very medieval. Sad!

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
Do these people not think about how cruel solitary confinement is? According to the article: "Researchers believe it damages the body and brain as well, but they can't test this hypothesis, because what we do to prisoners every day—house them in prolonged isolation—is illegal to do to laboratory animals. It is against the law to treat rats the way we treat people in solitary." Yup. That's right. Illegal for lab rats. Obviously they know it is harmful. The entire point of the American justice system is to make people suffer for the crimes they have done, however, and to do so in the cheapest manner possible. And this is with some public support. It is "tough on crime" and gets folks elected. Somewhere out there is an interview with a Norwegian prison director. His speech to new inmates says something along the lines of: *In Norway, we don't have life imprisonment nor the death penalty. Which means that one day you are getting out and might be my neighbor. I'm invested in making sure your time here is good so that when you get out, I'll be happy to have you as my neighbor". I think this is the sort of attitude we (Americans) should adopt. I think this would make a bigger difference than imagining the pain of solitary.
- richmarr 10y ago
  > The entire point of the American justice system is to make people suffer... It's interesting that the comparitively religious-leaning US has a more punishment-centric penal system, whereas the comparatively secular Europe leans towards rehabilitation. Considering the "vengeance is mine" thing and the Christian forgiveness thing you would have thought it would be the other way around.
  - Senderman 10y ago
    I was raised Catholic•, in Ireland. The entire narrative is built around the idea of going to heaven while ~all the bad people~ burn forever elsewhere. From what I can see, in the context of the church, "Forgiveness" is a means of keeping control over people who feel guilty/scared. So, I'm not surprised by the comparison you noticed. • Disclaimer: Clearly, I'm still more than a little bitter about it.
    - samirillian 10y ago
      The book of Revelations includes a part where the "elect" call out for the blood of the sinners. And Nietzsche references church fathers rejoicing at a similar thought. Tangentially, Genealogy of Morals is a good resource for wrapping one's head around these kinds of barbarities.
  - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
    That bit has always surprised me - not just in the prison systems, but things like a safety net and healthcare for the poor.
    - gdwatson 10y ago
      On the safety net, it's worth remembering that Christian societies have historically had other institutions than government into which to channel their collective efforts. The notion that all "the things we choose to do together" are the sphere of government is a recent one in the West.
  - 10y ago
IsaacL 10y ago
Do you know how much people suffer if their house is broken into, if they are robbed at gunpoint, if they are raped, etc? Not just the direct harm, but the ongoing psychological harm?
- jamescostian 10y ago
  That harm is truly awful. But I believe Gandhi said something like "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind." If you don't care about the people in solitary, why not at least care about their psychological state once they get out? Imagine someone who was in solitary being freed, and then deciding to harm some people. Don't you think the person from solitary, who has had a bunch of psychological issues from solitary, would be even worse than someone who hasn't been in solitary? P.S. your original Iron Man framing makes me want to respond in kind with a strawman: imagine a person hooked on cigarettes goes to prison for a crime they didn't even commit, and then they are caught with cigarettes and put in solitary. I'd say that's also truly awful
- mfringel 10y ago
  Will the perpetrator's suffering make the victim un-robbed?
  - p1esk 10y ago
    It might make some victims feel better, which can be considered a form of a moral compensation.
    - mfringel 10y ago
      It might.... under what circumstances? some victims.... which ones? can be considered.... by who?
      - p1esk 10y ago
        Well, I would've certainly felt better knowing that the guy who robbed me got punished.
peteretep 10y ago
I'm a bleeding heart liberal, but: > Do these people not think > about how cruel solitary > confinement is? If it was effective, and its use wasn't at a guard's whim, I wouldn't really care. But it's not effective, and there doesn't appear to be proper oversight, and that's what upsets me.
- cooper12 10y ago
  Sorry, I don't care what you label yourself as, but if you think it's justifiable to use cruel punishment as long as its "effective", you might be a bit morally defective. Torture is a human rights violation.
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    Torture has historically been thought to be the use of pain to coerce. Lets admit it, we use all sorts of pressures to coerce people. We can't label them all as 'torture'. Don't get me wrong, I think solitary is wrong. And if we redefine 'torture' to mean 'permanently disfiguring a person mentally or physically for coercive purposes' then it neatly fits.
  - peteretep 10y ago
    You think a punishment is bad when it crosses a certain arbitrary severity threshold. I think a punishment is bad when it's ineffective, its application doesn't benefit society as a whole, and when there's no oversight. A morality that's consistent, dependable, and based on greater good to society is rather more useful than one based on arbitrary feels.
SilasX 10y ago
I don't want to be imprisoned, so should I oppose all imprisonment? Edit: sorry if that came off as blunt, but this seems like a legit problem with your application of the Golden Rule. Could you reformulate it, or explain why nothing undesirable should ever happen to anyone "because you wouldn't like it"?
MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
Have you ever noticed that "cruel and unusual punishment", the famous standard for what will be considered the acceptable limit of legal punishment, in fact implicitly sanctions cruelty in our legal system? If severe cruelty is the norm then it is considered just, indeed even fair and necessary, that that cruelty be normalized and extended to all those under the punitive regime. There is a deep vein of cruelty in American history. I personally believe it is significantly rooted in Puritan theology - self-denial and self-abnegation are both forms of self-inflicted cruelty, and if one is cruel to oneself, both in daily practice and in the broader sense of ones philosophical beliefs and worldview (i.e. believing you are a sinner, believing you are in a state of perpetual spiritual disgrace), then cruelty becomes a foundational principle of your relationship with the world and other people.
slavik81 10y ago
> The best way to make peopleunderstand these cruel practices is to imagine themselves in solitary confinement. Would you want that? Obviously no... That's not effective unless people actually understand what solitary confinement is. I have zero desire to spend my time living with a whole bunch of criminals and don't find the thought of being alone to be particularly scary. I doubt I'd even miss people for at least a month. Give me a few books, a bed, desk, stationary and a toilet and it would feel like a writer's retreat. It was only after reading accounts from people in solitary that I discovered that you get none of that. Just an empty room with a hole in the floor. The term 'solitary confinement' doesn't communicate anything beyond the fact that you're alone, but the reality is that they take a lot more than social interaction away.
- gozur88 10y ago
  Yeah, it's not just solitary confinement. It's also, in some prisons, the complete lack of intellectual stimulation. You're locked in a box with nothing at all to occupy your mind - no books, television, radio, computer, newspaper, human interaction... nothing. There isn't even anything to write with or on. Prisoners start smearing shit on the walls just to relieve the monotony.
yeahsurebut888 10y ago
Personally, I see it as "the most telling line how the people let the Government behave." Speaking up peacefully does work; SOPA was halted by coordinated effort. But we spent our days coordinating around the economic activity dictated to us by the "wise old masters of commerce" instead. You don't want them behaving like that? Don't let them.

andyjohnson0 10y ago

"There are still significant variations within Europe in the maximum permissible duration for solitary confinement allowed as punishment. In Belgium, eight days is the maximum permissible duration, whereas Finland allows 14 days; Poland, England, and Wales allow 28; France and Estonia allow 45; and Ireland allows up to 60. But overall, the dangers of solitary confinement have been recognized." [1] [1] http://www.brownpoliticalreview.org/2015/11/beyond-solitary-confinement-lessons-from-european-prison-reform/ http://www.brownpoliticalreview.org/2015/11/beyond-solitary-...

ptaipale 10y ago
I wonder where that quote has collected its data. At least in Finland prisoners may be isolated from other prisoners for specific reasons (like waiting until the drug cache comes out of the digestive system the normal way), but not as a punishment, and not for more than 7 days.
fsiefken 10y ago
Regarding Sweden, does Breivik's prison sentence and stay (solitary confinement) constitute torture? "1 March 2017, the Court of Appeals upheld part of Brevik`s appeal that Article 3 of the convention on human rights had been breached, that he has been subjected to degrading treatment but that his solitary confinement did not violate Breivik's rights" (source: wikipedia) Or what about the solitary confinement of Gottfrid Svartholm, co-founder of ThePirateBay? https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/the-swedes-have-the-pirate-bays-co-founder-in-solitary-confinement https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/the-swedes-have-the-pirat... Regarding The Netherlands, the killer of Theo Van Gogh, Mohammed B., is also held in solitary confinement. Do all of these constitute torture or an inhumane treatment?
- olfox 10y ago
  Breivik is Norwegian.
- bouvin 10y ago
  Breivik would be in Norway. He is not completely isolated btw, as he has visitors (IIRC, from an organisation that normally visits the lonely or elderly — he is not permitted to choose his own visitors).

entropyneur 10y ago

On the intellectual level I have absolutely no reason to doubt the scientific evidence or the countless accounts of people who were subjected to solitary imprisonment and describe it as torture and worst thing that ever happened to them. I remember a documentary (probably NatGeo's "America's hardest prisons") episode where a violent and seemingly fearless thug was reduced to a crying baby by 2 weeks of solitary confinement. Yet, for some reason I am completely unable to empathize with it. And it's not for general lack of empathy either - I am quite horrified by pretty much everything else I learn about the experience of prisoners. But even after reading this article I feel like I'd choose solitary over sharing a cell with others. I suspect that points to some peculiarity/defect in my psyche. Does anyone else feel the same way?

interfixus 10y ago
Absolutely. I am sociable enough, but given the choice, I'll take solitude any day.
- s_kilk 10y ago
  You literally have no idea what you're talking about.
  - fiatjaf 10y ago
    Neither you, my friend.
  - interfixus 10y ago
    How do you know?
- bambax 10y ago
  I would tend to agree with both comments but I think it's because we don't know what we're talking about. We all have experienced being in a closed space with people we don't know or like, but we usually have never experienced complete isolation for extended periods of time. I need lots of time alone, but being absolutely alone for two weeks and having zero interaction with anyone or even an animal or a plant? That's something else entirely.

olfox 10y ago

Mindfield, the new series by vsauce, tackled this in its first episode, which recently became free to watch. It was an interesting watch, although I couldn't really take the experiment seriously after the segment with the former inmate who had spent way more time confined in a cell with even less stimulation than the one Michael was about to enter. Anyhow, prolonged isolation(>3 days, maybe less) and willful disruption of circadian rhythms should definitely be considered torture. Also, doing this to people who will reenter society is just so shortsighted and dumb, regardless of the total lack of morality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqKdEhx-dD4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqKdEhx-dD4

intralizee 10y ago

I had an experience with solitary confinement and I was tormented by it. The memories don't effect me much anymore and I now can write about it. It resulted from a mental break down, causing an arrest which was not justified legally but the officer at the scene was annoyed by me. The charge were eventually dismissed but still haunts me like it would for any person. I'm transgender which is related to the situation; at the time I had troubles communicating what I was going through and an attempt at failing 'x' which caused a wreck. Luckily nobody other than me was injured physically or mentally by the wreck. I was told by other officers & firemen, "I would not be arrested as I had done nothing illegal" but the leading male officer decided to arrest me regardless and I ended up in the place for mentally ill criminals. I either pissed off the officer by asking to speak to the female officer instead when questioned or he had something against me by how I looked. I've never had a mental illness or have been diagnosed with any mental illness or even depression but I somehow ended up on haldol for schizophrenia which was shortly decided a day after the arrest without seeing any medical professional qualified for making such a diagnosis which needs 6 months observation anyway. It all happened in Texas, almost ruined my life and has influenced other events in my life by negligence of others not understanding; leading to discrimination with other things by negligence. I'm trying to pursue some justice for connections to what I've experienced resulting from negligence of others, so I can sleep better but let me now get on to the solitary confinement story. The solitary confinement I was put in (while stripped of all clothes) had a button/speaker system to an supervising law enforcement person. None of the law enforcement in charge of watching would make any indication to sympathy and would say things which would escalate any grief a person communicated even if it was a sane request. Talking by button/speaker you would hear short responses made to sound annoyed and I was told to "get used to this as how am I going to survive when I go to prison" which to this day I cannot understand how messed up a person must be to feel the need to say something like that to a person in the situation I was in. The confinement smelled similar to bleach or some really strong chemical odor, it would make my throat dry and people would be screaming for water. Other inmates in solitary confinement would scream they are Lucifer or that they are on true crime TV with nonsense stuff. There were bars on the floor forming a 2 by 2 square for #1 or #2. Meals would consist of a paper bag containing an apple past it's prime, a milk carton, chips/pretzels and a small sandwich of tuna. So you're stuck in this small space with a camera watching you and no clothes. Eventually I became anxious where I needed to know the time and ended up annoying the guard on duty by repetitively asking for it. I only had to stay in there for close to 2 days, until my lawyer managed to come and get me out of there. Bail was set at 50k which luckily I have parents that paid for it and it was returned to them after the dismissal. Anyway I think it's reasonable for a person to prefer death when experiencing solitary confinement because I would have preferred death to that experience. I really do enjoy life though but going through that was just wow.

jMyles 10y ago

Stories of torture at the hands of the state, in a domestic correctional context, are everywhere. This is a confirmed, observable phenomenon, not subject to much conjecture or doubt. And it's time to smash it. Thinking that some slow, incremental legislative progress is going to fix this problem is pulling a blanket of privilege over eyes and ears. When Washington falls, which it will, we must immediately turn to our states and ensure - by whatever nonviolent means necessary - that they do not fill in the budget vacuum currently filled by a hodgepodge of federal grants and instead close prisons en masse. In the mean time, we need to form pen-pal relationships with prisoners, shame people who decide to work in the prison industry (I know this sounds cruel, but it's less cruel than refraining from doing so), and speak out in square company. Enough is enough.

alex_hitchins 10y ago
> shame people who decide to work in the prison industry (I know this sounds cruel, but it's less cruel than refraining from doing so), and speak out in square company. Not everyone working in the prison system is evil. There are good people there wanting to help people.
- jMyles 10y ago
  Absolutely - I acknowledge that. But at this point, I assert that we need to deprive the system of labor, especially from good people. I think it's a very legitimate form of protest.
  - ars 10y ago
    > But at this point, I assert that we need to deprive the system of labor, especially from good people You are delusional. You want to reform the prison system by only hiring bad people to run it?
    - jMyles 10y ago
      I have expressly said that I don't want to "reform" the prison system. I used the word "smash" - I'm not sure how much further from "reform" you can get. I want prisons gone completely from this land, as they were for most of our history.

virtualwhys 10y ago

Also see: This Blinding Absence of Light[1], true story of an Morrocan coup attempt gone wrong, and the 18 year punishment that ensued. Disturbing and beautiful account; it's amazing what humans can endure, pushing toward the inner light amidst its complete absence. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Blinding_Absence_of_Light https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Blinding_Absence_of_Light

deleted 10y ago

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makecheck 10y ago

It's insane that prisoners are treated poorly. It's also ridiculous that statistics like "rate of recidivism" do not seem to even consider what effect the incarceration itself had on the offender.

ddingus 10y ago

When can we move to fixing people, not just punishment? Our current system is selfish. The suffering is a show for everyone else. It's supposed to suck. Nobody has a beef with that. But it doesn't have to destroy.