10 ms·

This line from near the end jumped out at me: > "I was asked if I was Muslim and what I did and where I lived." The hell? I know I'm a naive white guy who do

This line from near the end jumped out at me: > "I was asked if I was Muslim and what I did and where I lived." The hell? I know I'm a naive white guy who doesn't travel much, but can they really ask you your religion when you cross the border? That sounds illegal and unconstitutional and offensive as hell.

Someone1234 10y ago
Yes, legally they can. CBP has broad powers to investigate. They can ask who you're sleeping with, your sexual orientation, what your religion is, your parent's religion, and on. Most Americans aren't used to this, but foreigners visiting your country have been putting up with this stuff since 9/11. Everything on your person is subject to search. They've now extended that to things not physically on your person (e.g. cloud accounts, social media logins, etc). PS - It may be illegal to deny entry due to many of these things. We're talking about what they can "legally" ask about, and the answer is just about anything.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  A US citizen can't be denied entry. Others can be denied entry for a long list of reasons: https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/757/~/friend,-relative,-etc.-denied-entry-to-the-u.s https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/757/~/friend,-r.... And there is little to stop an individual border officer from simply using one of those reasons as a pretext to arbitrarily deny entry.
- mkaziz 10y ago
  They're allowed to ask a US Citizen their religion? Isn't that a protected class?
  - Someone1234 10y ago
    Yes they are. I don't follow what protected classes have to do with this. Class protections stop someone from being denied employment, denied services, or discriminated against. It doesn't make it some kind of secret, or "don't ask, don't tell." CPS have been given the power to investigate US Citizens for other criminal infractions (like smuggling, identity theft, and terrorism) so they can ask invasive questions and refer it to other law enforcement.
    - mkaziz 10y ago
      If they're asking for your religion for the purposes of deciding whether to let you into the country or not, or detain your or not, doesn't that open the door to being discriminated against /for your religion/?
      - Someone1234 10y ago
        "Opening the door" to something bad happen isn't an actual argument. Detaining someone could "open the door" to violent beatings, talking to someone could "open the door" to threatening them, but until those beatings, threats, or actual discrimination occur it isn't considered illegal.
        saalweachter 10y ago
        I think a better question is "why would they ask you your religion if they didn't mean to deny you entry to the country on the basis of it?". You can detain someone for many reasons, some of them legitimate, some of them illegitimate. What is the other reason to ask someone their religion at the border?
        Someone1234 10y ago
        > What is the other reason to ask someone their religion at the border? To determine their eligibility to enter. Much like figuring out political views, it can open up avenues of discussion which may flag problems.
        saalweachter 10y ago
        I've got to ask, it's really bugging me. Are you OK with prohibiting entry on the basis with religion, or do you really not see how asking someone their religion to determine their eligibility to enter is prohibiting their entry on the basis of their religion?
gcr 10y ago
CBP is beginning to ask folks for their Facebook passwords and denying them entry unless they comply. This is already happening.
- komali2 10y ago
  They're denying them entry, or making them sit in the hit box? I haven't heard of people being denied entry.
  - rocha 10y ago
    Here is an account from a person I know: http://www.e-flux.com/announcements/103020/an-open-letter-by-juan-garcia-mosqueda/ http://www.e-flux.com/announcements/103020/an-open-letter-by...
    - bobwaycott 10y ago
      Nothing in that article—as awful as the experience is—suggests being denied entry because of refusing to comply with a request for one's FB password.
notheguyouthink 10y ago
I'm always curious on where we draw the line for these subjects. Lets say for the sake of argument there is a key tell that is very effective for spotting a violent criminal. Do we have to ignore that tell if it falls into a sketchy subject matter like race or religion? Likewise, what if there is a "key tell" that someone is not a violent criminal. Do we have to ignore it if it falls into a sketchy subject matter like race or religion? To be clear, i am not implying that Muslims are that "key tell", statistically they're far from it simply due to the number of them. It was just a question, unrelated to Islam. Personally, i don't care what the "tells" are, race or religion. I think they're all valid. I simply disagree that the tells are effective enough to warrant questioning someones religion at all. Seems like more of the super expensive and famously ineffective TSA safety theater.
- komali2 10y ago
  Problem is, there are no "tells," particular of a religious orientation.
  - notheguyouthink 10y ago
    I think there are. Eg, i feel pretty justified in assuming and acting on (ie, walking away from them lol) anyone from the west bureau baptist church. I have yet to see a rational, non-hatefilled comment come out of WBBC (not sure what acronym they go by). So why do i have to strictly assume innocence? If they start bombing or hijacking planes next week, can we not ban them from flying? It seems quite reasonable. I'm not saying we hang them all, because they have not all been proven violent, but it's a small sect with extremism and clear patterns. Can we not use this information? Do we have to ignore it?
    - imglorp 10y ago
      On that note, there really have been a number of white Christian terrorists coming from the Carolinas. It's a valid discussion. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/11/robert_lewis_dear_is_one_of_many_religious_extremists_bred_in_north_carolina.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/201...
venomsnake 10y ago
It is legal to ask you anything. It doesn't mean you are obliged to answer.
microcolonel 10y ago
What would that have to do with the constitution. The government is prevented from establishing a state religion, they're not prevented from taking religion into consideration.
- saalweachter 10y ago
  There are two bits of the Constitution which might have something to say; the First Amendment is quite overdone and passé nowadays, but it also says "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". It's not a giant leap to claim that prohibiting entry to people of a particular religion (or why else is the border control asking, if not to prohibit entry to people of particular religion?) interferes with "the free exercise thereof". The second is that the Constitution prohibits religious tests for Federal office; this has trickled down a general prohibition against religious tests. (The wording of that part of the Constitution allows for a very narrow interpretation of which offices cannot have religious tests, but it's never actually been put to a test in court, because we just don't do religious tests, period.) Culturally, it is very offensive to me as an American to be instituting them at the border.
  - microcolonel 10y ago
    Fair enough, you've crushed my dreams of being a constitutional scholar. ;- ) Yeah, I generally think that religious tests are repugnant. Though there's the issue of Islam being a fancy religion with all the bells and whistles, such as an immutable holy language, a political ideology, a broad jurisprudence, and a warlord-prophet elevated nearly to the level of its god. I think it should be fair to ask if they hold any of the views which are obviously incompatible with 21st century western society; tossing gay people off high places like rooftops and cliffs, instituting a religious tax against non-muslims, humiliating the outgroup in the street (which is a much broader definition of humiliate than you normally use, probably includes sexual assault). I'm in a bit of a pickle with my own principles; because none of this should happen in principle, but the intention is largely valid.
- realusername 10y ago
  Depends on your culture and point of view regarding the state, as a French myself, I think asking religion/race on a form is offensive and outside of the role of a state (same for schools as well).

Someone1234 10y ago

Yes, legally they can. CBP has broad powers to investigate. They can ask who you're sleeping with, your sexual orientation, what your religion is, your parent's religion, and on. Most Americans aren't used to this, but foreigners visiting your country have been putting up with this stuff since 9/11. Everything on your person is subject to search. They've now extended that to things not physically on your person (e.g. cloud accounts, social media logins, etc). PS - It may be illegal to deny entry due to many of these things. We're talking about what they can "legally" ask about, and the answer is just about anything.

maxerickson 10y ago
A US citizen can't be denied entry. Others can be denied entry for a long list of reasons: https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/757/~/friend,-relative,-etc.-denied-entry-to-the-u.s https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/757/~/friend,-r.... And there is little to stop an individual border officer from simply using one of those reasons as a pretext to arbitrarily deny entry.
mkaziz 10y ago
They're allowed to ask a US Citizen their religion? Isn't that a protected class?
- Someone1234 10y ago
  Yes they are. I don't follow what protected classes have to do with this. Class protections stop someone from being denied employment, denied services, or discriminated against. It doesn't make it some kind of secret, or "don't ask, don't tell." CPS have been given the power to investigate US Citizens for other criminal infractions (like smuggling, identity theft, and terrorism) so they can ask invasive questions and refer it to other law enforcement.
  - mkaziz 10y ago
    If they're asking for your religion for the purposes of deciding whether to let you into the country or not, or detain your or not, doesn't that open the door to being discriminated against /for your religion/?
    - Someone1234 10y ago
      "Opening the door" to something bad happen isn't an actual argument. Detaining someone could "open the door" to violent beatings, talking to someone could "open the door" to threatening them, but until those beatings, threats, or actual discrimination occur it isn't considered illegal.
      - saalweachter 10y ago
        I think a better question is "why would they ask you your religion if they didn't mean to deny you entry to the country on the basis of it?". You can detain someone for many reasons, some of them legitimate, some of them illegitimate. What is the other reason to ask someone their religion at the border?
        Someone1234 10y ago
        > What is the other reason to ask someone their religion at the border? To determine their eligibility to enter. Much like figuring out political views, it can open up avenues of discussion which may flag problems.
        saalweachter 10y ago
        I've got to ask, it's really bugging me. Are you OK with prohibiting entry on the basis with religion, or do you really not see how asking someone their religion to determine their eligibility to enter is prohibiting their entry on the basis of their religion?

gcr 10y ago

CBP is beginning to ask folks for their Facebook passwords and denying them entry unless they comply. This is already happening.

komali2 10y ago
They're denying them entry, or making them sit in the hit box? I haven't heard of people being denied entry.
- rocha 10y ago
  Here is an account from a person I know: http://www.e-flux.com/announcements/103020/an-open-letter-by-juan-garcia-mosqueda/ http://www.e-flux.com/announcements/103020/an-open-letter-by...
  - bobwaycott 10y ago
    Nothing in that article—as awful as the experience is—suggests being denied entry because of refusing to comply with a request for one's FB password.

notheguyouthink 10y ago

I'm always curious on where we draw the line for these subjects. Lets say for the sake of argument there is a key tell that is very effective for spotting a violent criminal. Do we have to ignore that tell if it falls into a sketchy subject matter like race or religion? Likewise, what if there is a "key tell" that someone is not a violent criminal. Do we have to ignore it if it falls into a sketchy subject matter like race or religion? To be clear, i am not implying that Muslims are that "key tell", statistically they're far from it simply due to the number of them. It was just a question, unrelated to Islam. Personally, i don't care what the "tells" are, race or religion. I think they're all valid. I simply disagree that the tells are effective enough to warrant questioning someones religion at all. Seems like more of the super expensive and famously ineffective TSA safety theater.

komali2 10y ago
Problem is, there are no "tells," particular of a religious orientation.
- notheguyouthink 10y ago
  I think there are. Eg, i feel pretty justified in assuming and acting on (ie, walking away from them lol) anyone from the west bureau baptist church. I have yet to see a rational, non-hatefilled comment come out of WBBC (not sure what acronym they go by). So why do i have to strictly assume innocence? If they start bombing or hijacking planes next week, can we not ban them from flying? It seems quite reasonable. I'm not saying we hang them all, because they have not all been proven violent, but it's a small sect with extremism and clear patterns. Can we not use this information? Do we have to ignore it?
  - imglorp 10y ago
    On that note, there really have been a number of white Christian terrorists coming from the Carolinas. It's a valid discussion. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/11/robert_lewis_dear_is_one_of_many_religious_extremists_bred_in_north_carolina.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/201...

venomsnake 10y ago

It is legal to ask you anything. It doesn't mean you are obliged to answer.

microcolonel 10y ago

What would that have to do with the constitution. The government is prevented from establishing a state religion, they're not prevented from taking religion into consideration.

saalweachter 10y ago
There are two bits of the Constitution which might have something to say; the First Amendment is quite overdone and passé nowadays, but it also says "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". It's not a giant leap to claim that prohibiting entry to people of a particular religion (or why else is the border control asking, if not to prohibit entry to people of particular religion?) interferes with "the free exercise thereof". The second is that the Constitution prohibits religious tests for Federal office; this has trickled down a general prohibition against religious tests. (The wording of that part of the Constitution allows for a very narrow interpretation of which offices cannot have religious tests, but it's never actually been put to a test in court, because we just don't do religious tests, period.) Culturally, it is very offensive to me as an American to be instituting them at the border.
- microcolonel 10y ago
  Fair enough, you've crushed my dreams of being a constitutional scholar. ;- ) Yeah, I generally think that religious tests are repugnant. Though there's the issue of Islam being a fancy religion with all the bells and whistles, such as an immutable holy language, a political ideology, a broad jurisprudence, and a warlord-prophet elevated nearly to the level of its god. I think it should be fair to ask if they hold any of the views which are obviously incompatible with 21st century western society; tossing gay people off high places like rooftops and cliffs, instituting a religious tax against non-muslims, humiliating the outgroup in the street (which is a much broader definition of humiliate than you normally use, probably includes sexual assault). I'm in a bit of a pickle with my own principles; because none of this should happen in principle, but the intention is largely valid.
realusername 10y ago
Depends on your culture and point of view regarding the state, as a French myself, I think asking religion/race on a form is offensive and outside of the role of a state (same for schools as well).