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I'm not sure why Sweden would be concerned. I read Russian news/propaganda occasionally. Over the last few years, Russian news/propaganda prepared Russian min

I'm not sure why Sweden would be concerned. I read Russian news/propaganda occasionally. Over the last few years, Russian news/propaganda prepared Russian minds for interfering in Ukraine. And the propaganda includes arguments to justify a military buildup. And it seems to be preparing Russian minds for a possible invasion of Baltic states one day. But I don't think I've even seen Sweden mentioned in Russian news/propaganda. I don't think Sweden is a target.

macintux 10y ago
War has a way of spilling over borders.
- bandrami 10y ago
  As do refugees, which sometimes require military resources to feed and house
nkrisc 10y ago
I wouldn't cite propaganda to support that conclusion, precisely because it's propaganda.
- thedevil 10y ago
  I see propaganda as very indicative of future conflicts, especially in countries like Russia, where the news stories are more heavily influenced by the government. I think propaganda is necessary to support a war effort (and avoid insurrection). Think of it this way: If you're a soldier and your government tells you to invade a random country with nice people, how willing are you to fight? On the other hand, if your government convinces you that the target country is full of Nazis that eat babies and plan to genocide your people, then suddenly you're a hero if you go kill a bunch of strangers who never did anything to you. So if you're running a country and you want to invade another country, you better start running the propaganda months, if not years, in advance. Edit: As another example, take the Iraq War. The US and NATO didn't just randomly invade Iraq without propaganda preparation. Bush was even calling Iraq part of the "axis of evil" for at least a year before the Iraq war.
  - zilean 10y ago
    > If you're a soldier and your government tells you to invade a random country with nice people, how willing are you to fight? Ironically Western counties are very good at it.
    - kaitnieks 10y ago
      Well, no, not really. Western countries always get a huge backlash for any military activity in any region. This is where the propaganda and state controlled media opinion would be very useful, at least for the military.
      - zilean 10y ago
        Admitedly i dont consume much western media, but i fail to see how this is the case with Syria, Lybia and what have you. Again, if this is not stopping them, why this should worry Russia.
  - nkrisc 10y ago
    The point I was making is a lack of propaganda to support a war against a target country doesn't necessarily indicate that country isn't a target, just that the propaganda machine might not yet want to make that country a appear as a target.
- pipio21 10y ago
  why not? Propaganda is a very good way to be informed. Precisely because the first law in good propaganda is "you never lie, just do not say anything about what you don't want mentioned". A lie like the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq is going to backfire when people realize, and they will. I found very useful watching RT propaganda along CNN, or BBC propaganda. If a group of propagandists fail to state a very important issue while the other do not, let's say they omit the official conclusion about a plane that went down months ago that you accused the other party of shooting down, well you know this party is lying.
JumpCrisscross 10y ago
> I don't think Sweden is a target As Andy Grove said, "only the paranoid survive" [1]. Good strategy means being prepared for the worst case. As a plus, being prepared for a worst-case scenario goes a healthy way towards deterring it. Keep in mind that Sweden is neither a NATO member [2] nor a nuclear power [3]. If Russia needed to make a strongman pitch at home or sow confusion abroad, it would be easier (and more meaningful) to cause trouble in Sweden or Finland than virtually anywhere else. Hence the perennial submarine drama [4]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Grove https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Grove [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#Sweden [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_nuclear_weapons_program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_nuclear_weapons_progra... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_submarine_incidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_submarine_incidents
mzs 10y ago
Cause Norway is? https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/2017/03/norway-moves-military-intelligence-away-russian-border https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/2017/03/norway-moves-milit...
- macintux 10y ago
  Norway is part of NATO and thus is absolutely a target.
  - mzs 10y ago
    Outside Stockholm: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/10/20/1413790933744_wps_3_REFILE_UPDATING_CAPTION_T.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/10/20/1413790933744_wps_... Also Sweden is has been aligning more with UK in particular lately and Russian media has noticed.
    - yjgyhj 10y ago
      Getting a 404 error on that link. Mind resubmitting to Imgur?
      - mzs 10y ago
        It was the photo of the sub: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/19/sweden-search-russian-submarine-stockholm https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/19/sweden-search-... Also there was a sighting in 2015 that I recall: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sweden-submarine-idUSKCN0VZ0KN http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sweden-submarine-idUSKCN0V...
mmmBacon 10y ago
War is not something that can be controlled once it breaks out. Non-aligned militaries that come into close proximity is something that's very dangerous. At the very least an incident between militaries can cause a diplomatic crisis or at worst start a minor war. The very presence of military forces in the Baltic is a deterrent for that reason. Also Russia has continually violated Swedens air space. Russian pilots have acted aggressively towards Swedish pilots and Russian submarines have been spotted in Swedish waters. So while Russia may not be plotting a war against Sweden, they are certainly stirring up trouble. Furthermore a war in the Baltic would be a disaster for Europe. If Russia perceives that they risk a wider war, they may back down.
- zilean 10y ago
  https://www.rt.com/news/346287-sweden-russian-submarine-hunt/ https://www.rt.com/news/346287-sweden-russian-submarine-hunt... Russia has nothing to gain in baltic that it doesnt have with Kaliningrad. Same goes for Ukraine w/o Crimea.
  - mzs 10y ago
    Russia Today? It would be nice for Russia to have a swath from Crimea to Dontesk up through Latvia, just look at a map.
    - zilean 10y ago
      Whats wrong with RT in general (besides funding) and this article in particular? > It would be nice for Russia to have a swath from Crimea to Dontesk up through Latvia, just look at a map. Why take this land? It does nothing strategically, has population that you need to subsidise, etc. Crimea allows Black Sea control. Kaliningrad effectively makes Baltic inner sea for Russia and if there ever would be any baltic action you would see that, not many (if any) ships would be able to enter.
      - kaitnieks 10y ago
        Latvia has a population you need to subsidize? What do you mean by that?
seppin 10y ago
> But I don't think I've even seen Sweden mentioned in Russian news/propaganda. I don't think Sweden is a target. not immediately, not if a greater conflict breaks out Sweden is a key chokepoint to enable Russia to get out of the north. They will need it.
Cthulhu_ 10y ago
Lots of countries weren't a target when Germany decided to annex most of Europe. Neutrality worked for a lot of countries in WWI, but Germany was like "well screw you". Ukraine never asked to be invaded by Russia.
- gspetr 10y ago
  Germany wanted resources and territory, "living space for the aryan race". Russia has more than enough of both.
eCa 10y ago
Sweden is probably not a target in and of itself, but the island of Gotland is pretty much an aircraft carrier in the middle of the Baltic Sea. If Russia invades the Baltic states they probably don't want NATO based on it.
htns 10y ago
Sweden had already shrunk their military in recognition of these things. The problem is they overshot, and can't recruit enough volunteers to maintain even a tiny force.
devopsproject 10y ago
You are misinformed because you are reading propaganda. They won't be relaying their plans of that channel. Here are some recent events: russian planes flying into Swedish air space russian sub in water near Stockholm Norway beefing up their border troops etc.
- travmatt 10y ago
  Russia launching attacks on Estonian critical infrastructure. Active disinformation campaigns targeting Norway, Sweden.
- htns 10y ago
  Those are more like events that have been ongoing for decades. Russian airspace incursions aren't much of a signal. (see e.g. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/full-list-of-incidents-involving-russian-military-and-nato-since-march-2014-9851309.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/full-list-of-... )
  - kafkaesq 10y ago
    That's not what the article you linked to says. If anything, its message is the exact opposite.
travmatt 10y ago
>Non-aligned Sweden is worried about Russia's Baltic military drills. >Ms Nyh Radebo said that "70% of parliament is behind the decision to strengthen the military and co-operation with the countries around us". >The closest co-operation is with Finland, she added. >Sweden’s prime minister, Stefan Löfven, told a national defence conference this week that he “cannot rule out” Russia trying to influence the country’s next elections, which are due in 2018. >“We should not rule it out and be naive and think that it does not happen in Sweden. That’s why information and cybersecurity is part of this strategy,” Löfven told the TT news agency. >https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/11/russia-waging-information-war-in-sweden-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/11/russia-waging-... And that's besides the massive russian campaigns to cut off electricity to estonia. It'd probably be something akin to a professional negligence for a military commander not to recommend this, and it seems Swedish politicians for some reason aren't buying the 'put down your weapons and abandon your allies' line of argument.
rattray 10y ago
> And it seems to be preparing Russian minds for a possible invasion of Baltic states one day. That's interesting; can you lend more color?
anticodon 10y ago
As Russian I don't agree. I don't watch TV and read news (other than HN and a couple of other sites where I try to avoid politics as much as I can), but why the hell do we need these Baltic states? What do they have that Russia needs? Territory, natural resources? Nothing. I don't know the real motivation for annexing Crimea, but making a conclusion: first they take Crimea, then they're going to take Sweden and Baltic states - is nonsense.
- ocschwar 10y ago
  Then why is Russia constantly interfering with the Baltics? Why did Russia abduct that Estonian border guard?
- brilliantcode 10y ago
  Putin wants to revive USSR without any of it's benefits but all of it's power & resources available to him. He might get his way-we have a "Gorbachev" in the White House or a KGB asset.
  - gspetr 10y ago
    Full disclosure: I am Russian. Even Belarus and Kazakhstan don't really want to join, forget about the rest ex-USSR countries. Taking countries by force makes even less sense - there do not exist resources or territory that make it profitable enough to offset military spending and new rounds of economic sanctions.
    - brilliantcode 10y ago
      it gives political momentum-as did Hitler's blitzkrieg in Poland Military wise you buy large buffer between US ground & air forces based around there.
      - gspetr 10y ago
        If he wanted a buffer he could have easily taken over Ukraine in the fall of 2014 and spring of 2015. Both times the rebels routed Ukrainian army and the road to Kiev was essentially clear. Reinstalling the puppet president would have been easy. Not to mention that during the coup itself there were reports of Ukrainian generals sending envoys to Moscow, seeking aid and patronage to throw a counter coup and either reinstate the former president or setup military dictatorship. And they easily had the force too. Kremlin just said no.
rodgerd 10y ago
> I'm not sure why Sweden would be concerned. So the rush of mass imigration by Russians buying up border property in Finland - Sweden's next door neighbour - shouldn't bother them?
wmil 10y ago
I think this is actually more about Sweden's migrant situation. Conscription at 19 is a disincentive to migrants claiming to be minors. Co-ed conscription is probably also a way to encourage integration.
- rmk2 10y ago
  I would be very surprised if they drafted anybody without a Swedish passport.
kafkaesq 10y ago
I don't think Sweden is a target. Let's just say they're thinking in the very, very long term. In the short-term, the move is most likely intended as a signal to discourage an invasion of the Baltics, rather than their own territory. But in the longer term, what they're signaling to their much larger neighbor is: "Look, we know your history, and we've seen you play this game before. When it comes to Swedish territory -- don't even think about it."

macintux 10y ago

War has a way of spilling over borders.

bandrami 10y ago
As do refugees, which sometimes require military resources to feed and house

nkrisc 10y ago

I wouldn't cite propaganda to support that conclusion, precisely because it's propaganda.

thedevil 10y ago
I see propaganda as very indicative of future conflicts, especially in countries like Russia, where the news stories are more heavily influenced by the government. I think propaganda is necessary to support a war effort (and avoid insurrection). Think of it this way: If you're a soldier and your government tells you to invade a random country with nice people, how willing are you to fight? On the other hand, if your government convinces you that the target country is full of Nazis that eat babies and plan to genocide your people, then suddenly you're a hero if you go kill a bunch of strangers who never did anything to you. So if you're running a country and you want to invade another country, you better start running the propaganda months, if not years, in advance. Edit: As another example, take the Iraq War. The US and NATO didn't just randomly invade Iraq without propaganda preparation. Bush was even calling Iraq part of the "axis of evil" for at least a year before the Iraq war.
- zilean 10y ago
  > If you're a soldier and your government tells you to invade a random country with nice people, how willing are you to fight? Ironically Western counties are very good at it.
  - kaitnieks 10y ago
    Well, no, not really. Western countries always get a huge backlash for any military activity in any region. This is where the propaganda and state controlled media opinion would be very useful, at least for the military.
    - zilean 10y ago
      Admitedly i dont consume much western media, but i fail to see how this is the case with Syria, Lybia and what have you. Again, if this is not stopping them, why this should worry Russia.
- nkrisc 10y ago
  The point I was making is a lack of propaganda to support a war against a target country doesn't necessarily indicate that country isn't a target, just that the propaganda machine might not yet want to make that country a appear as a target.
pipio21 10y ago
why not? Propaganda is a very good way to be informed. Precisely because the first law in good propaganda is "you never lie, just do not say anything about what you don't want mentioned". A lie like the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq is going to backfire when people realize, and they will. I found very useful watching RT propaganda along CNN, or BBC propaganda. If a group of propagandists fail to state a very important issue while the other do not, let's say they omit the official conclusion about a plane that went down months ago that you accused the other party of shooting down, well you know this party is lying.

JumpCrisscross 10y ago

> I don't think Sweden is a target As Andy Grove said, "only the paranoid survive" [1]. Good strategy means being prepared for the worst case. As a plus, being prepared for a worst-case scenario goes a healthy way towards deterring it. Keep in mind that Sweden is neither a NATO member [2] nor a nuclear power [3]. If Russia needed to make a strongman pitch at home or sow confusion abroad, it would be easier (and more meaningful) to cause trouble in Sweden or Finland than virtually anywhere else. Hence the perennial submarine drama [4]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Grove https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Grove [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#Sweden [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_nuclear_weapons_program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_nuclear_weapons_progra... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_submarine_incidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_submarine_incidents

mzs 10y ago

Cause Norway is? https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/2017/03/norway-moves-military-intelligence-away-russian-border https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/2017/03/norway-moves-milit...

macintux 10y ago
Norway is part of NATO and thus is absolutely a target.
- mzs 10y ago
  Outside Stockholm: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/10/20/1413790933744_wps_3_REFILE_UPDATING_CAPTION_T.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/10/20/1413790933744_wps_... Also Sweden is has been aligning more with UK in particular lately and Russian media has noticed.
  - yjgyhj 10y ago
    Getting a 404 error on that link. Mind resubmitting to Imgur?
    - mzs 10y ago
      It was the photo of the sub: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/19/sweden-search-russian-submarine-stockholm https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/19/sweden-search-... Also there was a sighting in 2015 that I recall: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sweden-submarine-idUSKCN0VZ0KN http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sweden-submarine-idUSKCN0V...

mmmBacon 10y ago

War is not something that can be controlled once it breaks out. Non-aligned militaries that come into close proximity is something that's very dangerous. At the very least an incident between militaries can cause a diplomatic crisis or at worst start a minor war. The very presence of military forces in the Baltic is a deterrent for that reason. Also Russia has continually violated Swedens air space. Russian pilots have acted aggressively towards Swedish pilots and Russian submarines have been spotted in Swedish waters. So while Russia may not be plotting a war against Sweden, they are certainly stirring up trouble. Furthermore a war in the Baltic would be a disaster for Europe. If Russia perceives that they risk a wider war, they may back down.

zilean 10y ago
https://www.rt.com/news/346287-sweden-russian-submarine-hunt/ https://www.rt.com/news/346287-sweden-russian-submarine-hunt... Russia has nothing to gain in baltic that it doesnt have with Kaliningrad. Same goes for Ukraine w/o Crimea.
- mzs 10y ago
  Russia Today? It would be nice for Russia to have a swath from Crimea to Dontesk up through Latvia, just look at a map.
  - zilean 10y ago
    Whats wrong with RT in general (besides funding) and this article in particular? > It would be nice for Russia to have a swath from Crimea to Dontesk up through Latvia, just look at a map. Why take this land? It does nothing strategically, has population that you need to subsidise, etc. Crimea allows Black Sea control. Kaliningrad effectively makes Baltic inner sea for Russia and if there ever would be any baltic action you would see that, not many (if any) ships would be able to enter.
    - kaitnieks 10y ago
      Latvia has a population you need to subsidize? What do you mean by that?

seppin 10y ago

> But I don't think I've even seen Sweden mentioned in Russian news/propaganda. I don't think Sweden is a target. not immediately, not if a greater conflict breaks out Sweden is a key chokepoint to enable Russia to get out of the north. They will need it.

Cthulhu_ 10y ago

Lots of countries weren't a target when Germany decided to annex most of Europe. Neutrality worked for a lot of countries in WWI, but Germany was like "well screw you". Ukraine never asked to be invaded by Russia.

gspetr 10y ago
Germany wanted resources and territory, "living space for the aryan race". Russia has more than enough of both.

eCa 10y ago

Sweden is probably not a target in and of itself, but the island of Gotland is pretty much an aircraft carrier in the middle of the Baltic Sea. If Russia invades the Baltic states they probably don't want NATO based on it.

htns 10y ago

Sweden had already shrunk their military in recognition of these things. The problem is they overshot, and can't recruit enough volunteers to maintain even a tiny force.

devopsproject 10y ago

You are misinformed because you are reading propaganda. They won't be relaying their plans of that channel. Here are some recent events: russian planes flying into Swedish air space russian sub in water near Stockholm Norway beefing up their border troops etc.

travmatt 10y ago
Russia launching attacks on Estonian critical infrastructure. Active disinformation campaigns targeting Norway, Sweden.
htns 10y ago
Those are more like events that have been ongoing for decades. Russian airspace incursions aren't much of a signal. (see e.g. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/full-list-of-incidents-involving-russian-military-and-nato-since-march-2014-9851309.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/full-list-of-... )
- kafkaesq 10y ago
  That's not what the article you linked to says. If anything, its message is the exact opposite.

travmatt 10y ago

>Non-aligned Sweden is worried about Russia's Baltic military drills. >Ms Nyh Radebo said that "70% of parliament is behind the decision to strengthen the military and co-operation with the countries around us". >The closest co-operation is with Finland, she added. >Sweden’s prime minister, Stefan Löfven, told a national defence conference this week that he “cannot rule out” Russia trying to influence the country’s next elections, which are due in 2018. >“We should not rule it out and be naive and think that it does not happen in Sweden. That’s why information and cybersecurity is part of this strategy,” Löfven told the TT news agency. >https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/11/russia-waging-information-war-in-sweden-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/11/russia-waging-... And that's besides the massive russian campaigns to cut off electricity to estonia. It'd probably be something akin to a professional negligence for a military commander not to recommend this, and it seems Swedish politicians for some reason aren't buying the 'put down your weapons and abandon your allies' line of argument.

rattray 10y ago

> And it seems to be preparing Russian minds for a possible invasion of Baltic states one day. That's interesting; can you lend more color?

anticodon 10y ago

As Russian I don't agree. I don't watch TV and read news (other than HN and a couple of other sites where I try to avoid politics as much as I can), but why the hell do we need these Baltic states? What do they have that Russia needs? Territory, natural resources? Nothing. I don't know the real motivation for annexing Crimea, but making a conclusion: first they take Crimea, then they're going to take Sweden and Baltic states - is nonsense.

ocschwar 10y ago
Then why is Russia constantly interfering with the Baltics? Why did Russia abduct that Estonian border guard?
brilliantcode 10y ago
Putin wants to revive USSR without any of it's benefits but all of it's power & resources available to him. He might get his way-we have a "Gorbachev" in the White House or a KGB asset.
- gspetr 10y ago
  Full disclosure: I am Russian. Even Belarus and Kazakhstan don't really want to join, forget about the rest ex-USSR countries. Taking countries by force makes even less sense - there do not exist resources or territory that make it profitable enough to offset military spending and new rounds of economic sanctions.
  - brilliantcode 10y ago
    it gives political momentum-as did Hitler's blitzkrieg in Poland Military wise you buy large buffer between US ground & air forces based around there.
    - gspetr 10y ago
      If he wanted a buffer he could have easily taken over Ukraine in the fall of 2014 and spring of 2015. Both times the rebels routed Ukrainian army and the road to Kiev was essentially clear. Reinstalling the puppet president would have been easy. Not to mention that during the coup itself there were reports of Ukrainian generals sending envoys to Moscow, seeking aid and patronage to throw a counter coup and either reinstate the former president or setup military dictatorship. And they easily had the force too. Kremlin just said no.

rodgerd 10y ago

> I'm not sure why Sweden would be concerned. So the rush of mass imigration by Russians buying up border property in Finland - Sweden's next door neighbour - shouldn't bother them?

wmil 10y ago

I think this is actually more about Sweden's migrant situation. Conscription at 19 is a disincentive to migrants claiming to be minors. Co-ed conscription is probably also a way to encourage integration.

rmk2 10y ago
I would be very surprised if they drafted anybody without a Swedish passport.

kafkaesq 10y ago

I don't think Sweden is a target. Let's just say they're thinking in the very, very long term. In the short-term, the move is most likely intended as a signal to discourage an invasion of the Baltics, rather than their own territory. But in the longer term, what they're signaling to their much larger neighbor is: "Look, we know your history, and we've seen you play this game before. When it comes to Swedish territory -- don't even think about it."