19 ms·

De-Muslimization: Flying while Muslim after the travel ban

87 points by hownottowrite 10y ago

adornedCupcake 10y ago
Jeez, dark times.
grenoire 10y ago
Isn't this the case for many people travelling to the US? It's really not about the travel ban, or being Muslim.
- accountface 10y ago
  For many it's a possibility, for Muslims it's an inevitability.
  - TillE 10y ago
    I still can't get over the fact that they detained Muhammad Ali Jr. for hours. Obviously not all Muslims will be detained everywhere. It's just a free license for any asshole CBP agent to do whatever the hell they feel like.
- romwell 10y ago
  Take a Quran with you on your next trip here and find out! If you are having second thoughts about this idea - herein lies your answer.
  - komali2 10y ago
    Meh, I'm a white dude but I'll give it a shot.
falsestprophet 10y ago
He has a lot of ideas about who is a real American. Does he also have a lot of ideas about who is a real Saudi, a real Yemeni, a real Moroccan, a real Indonesian, a real Nigerian?
the-dude 10y ago
All / only feelings, no substance at all. I have always felt treated like a suspect around US / Canadian / Swiss borders. Have been ordered to take of shoes etc. There is literally nothing in the whole piece except feelings.
- nyreed 10y ago
  You say that like feelings are something not worth discussing.
  - the-dude 10y ago
    I knew my comment would be countered like this. I don't think they are not worth discussing, but the title of the piece is pretty sensational. I just commented there are no facts, nothing was real. She felt the way she did. Sure. But travel has been this way 15+ years now. edit:typos
    - bakul 10y ago
      Rafia is a she. Not that it changes anything. This fear is much worse now. Watching what you say, the language you speak, books you read, what may be on your computers/phone, your demeanor, etc. Because of that fear she tried to remove anything that may signal she is a Muslim to the CBP. That makes the title not sensational. [But it didn't work as they still asked her if she was a Muslim.]
      - the-dude 10y ago
        It does not change anything, but it explains a lot.
        romwell 10y ago
        I'd be curious to know what exactly this explained.
    - romwell 10y ago
altendo 10y ago
In 2014 I traveled to Ghana for a friend's wedding there. The day I flew back, I had to go through a second, thorough security checkpoint at the gate before I could hope to board my plane. I didn't have anything to worry about - I'm considered one of the "'real' Americans" that the OP mentions - but I was still struck by what sort of impression this might leave on others coming to the United States with me. Namely, I thought that it sent the message that the US, before even receiving visitors, was saying "I don't trust you". There is always that balance between security and openness; I don't deny that it's difficult to manage. Let's not pretend, however, that people aren't affected by xenophobic rhetoric. They are. What message does it send to actual Americans citizens like the OP when we lambaste them for their religion? Is that who we are as Americans, those who spread fear to those who don't look or act "real"? I'm not liking where this country is going.
- Klathmon 10y ago
  I'm just so shocked by how... normal it's gotten. When I was growing up, I was taught that you shouldn't ever think differently of someone because of their skin color, their ethnicity, or their religion. Obviously you should always strive to never judge a person by any one thing, but those 3 were practically beat into me as being something you just don't do. So much so that we had laws against it. When I first started hearing the term "Muslim ban" my jaw hit the floor. I reacted the same way I would if someone proposed a "Nigger ban". It just sounded so horribly wrong and misguided and awful. Like every fiber of my being was screaming that this is such a terrible awful thing, but nobody else seemed to be reacting to it. In my mind, this country was built on an openness to all religions. And I'm just so shocked to see that such a large number of people would not only disagree with that, but advocate for the opposite!
  - Consultant32452 10y ago
    I don't support the so-called "Muslim ban" either, but it's worth acknowledging that anyone even calling it a "Muslim ban," including the POTUS, is just doing so to get a reaction out of people. And it worked. How about calling it a ban on countries we happen to be bombing right now? That headline isn't quite as salacious, but is more accurate than calling it a Muslim ban. We bombed I think 5 of the 7 countries in the ban within the last year. The fact that people seem more upset about stopping some people at the border than they are about dropping cluster bombs on them in their home country is really puzzling to me.
carlmcqueen 10y ago
My father's job included a lot of travel, so I've traveled through airports and out of the country for more than 30 years. The humanity from travel has been stripped from all of us, in spite of this I have the deepest sympathy for the writer of this article because while my humanity feels ignored while I travel due to corporations choices of how we are to be treated on their planes I am still in the "real american" category she* spoke of. The greatest of my fears are having to sit next to someone who needs as much of the small provided seat I need causing us to have to "suck in" our shoulders so they only sort of lean on each other. I don't have any text conversations on my phones or emails that would flag anything but in the same breath, I've never had to think or worry about that either. edit: fixed gender issues.
- farnsworth 10y ago
  I downloaded a bunch of issues of "Dabiq", the ISIS newsletter, out of curiosity, then later took my laptop through security multiple times without even thinking about it until I read this article. Because I'm also a "real american".
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - canadian_voter 10y ago
    Last time I flew into the US I was reading a copy of The Reluctant Fundamentalist on the plane. But I'm white, so nobody cared. Next time I think I'll try The Anarchist Cookbook.
- l8again 10y ago
  quick nit: the author is a woman. I see other commenters making the same mistake. So, thought I would correct it.
lolc 10y ago
From my stoner years, I can relate. Nowadays I'm in the "unafraid and unselfconscious" category again. Edit: That doesn't mean I'm going to visit the US again with those checks in place.
ilanco 10y ago
I am not a Muslim and neither an American citizen. After reading multiple articles like these it has become clear to me that any visitor to the United States should backup and wipe their phones and take the minimum amount of electronics. It's not that I have something to hide, is the invasion of my privacy that bothers me.
- qqg3 10y ago
  I've seen a few places suggest wiped phones are a little suspect, so maybe populate them with a little bit of "neutral" content?
- xeromal 10y ago
  My Samsung S7 just released a thing called secure folder which creates a second version of your phone user that can have it's own apps and photos. I wonder if people are aware of it. https://news.samsung.com/global/for-your-eyes-only-secure-folder-now-available-for-galaxy-s7-galaxy-s7-edge https://news.samsung.com/global/for-your-eyes-only-secure-fo...
  - jedikv 10y ago
    You're better off just backing up to the cloud and wiping. Having hidden data can be compromising if they discover the presence of it.
saalweachter 10y ago
This line from near the end jumped out at me: > "I was asked if I was Muslim and what I did and where I lived." The hell? I know I'm a naive white guy who doesn't travel much, but can they really ask you your religion when you cross the border? That sounds illegal and unconstitutional and offensive as hell.
- Someone1234 10y ago
  Yes, legally they can. CBP has broad powers to investigate. They can ask who you're sleeping with, your sexual orientation, what your religion is, your parent's religion, and on. Most Americans aren't used to this, but foreigners visiting your country have been putting up with this stuff since 9/11. Everything on your person is subject to search. They've now extended that to things not physically on your person (e.g. cloud accounts, social media logins, etc). PS - It may be illegal to deny entry due to many of these things. We're talking about what they can "legally" ask about, and the answer is just about anything.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    A US citizen can't be denied entry. Others can be denied entry for a long list of reasons: https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/757/~/friend,-relative,-etc.-denied-entry-to-the-u.s https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/757/~/friend,-r.... And there is little to stop an individual border officer from simply using one of those reasons as a pretext to arbitrarily deny entry.
  - mkaziz 10y ago
    They're allowed to ask a US Citizen their religion? Isn't that a protected class?
    - Someone1234 10y ago
      Yes they are. I don't follow what protected classes have to do with this. Class protections stop someone from being denied employment, denied services, or discriminated against. It doesn't make it some kind of secret, or "don't ask, don't tell." CPS have been given the power to investigate US Citizens for other criminal infractions (like smuggling, identity theft, and terrorism) so they can ask invasive questions and refer it to other law enforcement.
newsbinator 10y ago
It's neither illegal nor unconstitutional. And I'm not certain it's offensive. If CBP asked you if there were any movies or cosplay groups on which you have based your value system, that wouldn't be overly offensive. Here they're asking whether it's a particular book and cosplay group.
- ISL 10y ago
  I heartily disagree: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." The Constitution is quite clear on this point. I've never understood where Customs finds probable cause for the expansion of search powers.
  - umanwizard 10y ago
    It's because you're consenting to the search. CBP can't force you to answer anything. You are free to withdraw your request to enter the US at any time and return to your country of origin.
    - ISL 10y ago
      Not if I'm a citizen.
      - umanwizard 10y ago
        Sure and if you're a citizen you aren't required to answer any of their questions if you don't want to.
        ISL 10y ago
        "Agents at ports of entry may question people about their citizenship and what they are bringing into the country. Even though you always have the right to remain silent, if you don’t answer questions to establish your citizenship, officials may deny you entry to the U.S. or detain you for search and/or questioning. Agents may search any person, the inside of any vehicle, and all passenger belongings. Agents do not need a warrant, any suspicion of wrongdoing, or consent to do any of these things." https://www.acluaz.org/sites/default/files/field_documents/aclu_border_rights.pdf https://www.acluaz.org/sites/default/files/field_documents/a...
xienze 10y ago
I wonder how the author feels about non-Muslims being banned from Mecca?
- m_fayer 10y ago
  Two wrongs don't make a right.
- Y_Y 10y ago
  Presumably fine. Why would you let infidels into a holy place? While persecuting people for circumstances of their birth is IMHO a moral wrong, adults are free to choose their religion (in "secular" countries like the US at least). The entails a set of beliefs, privileges and responsibilities. Whether or not it's fair, border security in a lot of places is anti-Muslim. It's part of the belief system of border agents and (some) voters. Islam and not-Islam are at odds here, just as they are in Mecca. I especially feel sorry for non-religious "Arab-looking" people who get caught up in this.
- komali2 10y ago
  Probably that It's Bad.
- alphabettsy 10y ago
  Okay cool? But why change the subject? That's certainly not defined by US policies as the author points to.
microcolonel 10y ago
> Some had been kicked off planes for speaking Arabic on a cell phone One of the two prominent alleged examples of this was a youtube prankster who stood up and started yelling into a telephone in the middle of an airplane, then jump-cut a video to make it look like people were criticizing him for speaking Arabic. The other prominent alleged example was of the son of a Iraqi diplomat who was killed under Saddam Hussein's regime; and though it may seem unfair, the FBI wanted to question him, he has a documented connection to politics in Iraq. There's a decent chance there that it had nothing to do with speaking Arabic on the plane, and the FBI wanted to question him anyhow. Other than that I guess I'd need to dig deeper, but this is a story some people want to come true. I am screened at airports, I don't know why exactly, I suspect they know something I don't know about my family. I factory reset all electronics before bringing them across the border, because I don't want to be asked to unlock them and submit to a search. Maybe it's theatre, maybe it's unfair, maybe it's a show of force, maybe it's discriminatory; but you know what, lots of people get stopped at the border. I can't pretend to know why I get stopped, and I don't think anyone else should either.
Cyph0n 10y ago
I'm a Muslim American (and Arab!) myself, and I'd like to chime in. Firstly, let me state that I did not travel back to the US during the Muslim ban. Nonetheless, I couldn't help but feel that the author was a bit too paranoid. According to a quick Google search, she likely wasn't wearing a hijab, which drastically decreases the amount of "attention" she'd receive during security checks. More importantly, she's American! The way I understand it, there is simply no way for her to be denied entry to the US. I understand her being worried about the content of her laptop, but again this would even worry a "true American". Remember the guy who was kicked off a plane for working on a math problem? It's important to note that the brunt of the Muslim ban was aimed at foreigners and US visa holders. My experience has been nothing but positive to be frank. Granted, I'm a male, so it's slightly more difficult to do "religious profiling". On my trip on Delta to Paris in late Dec 2016, I was comfortable speaking Arabic on the plane: I was seated next to a older Libyan lady who was traveling to visit family, and we had a nice chat as the plane landed. She was wearing hijab, and also had nothing bad to say about travelling to/from the US. Of course, this does not at all mean that I'm fine with the ban! On the contrary, I think it was an extremely stupid and short sighted decision, and I'm honestly quite disgusted that POTUS is still pushing for it.
- altendo 10y ago
  > there is simply no way for her to be denied entry to the US As was proven when Trump instituted his executive order, people with valid visas and even green cards were denied entry into the US[1]. That's since been reversed in the courts... but that doesn't mean that the current, or even a future, administration won't try again in the future. (I doubt Trump will, after getting blocked in the courts... but you never know.) [1] http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/trump-muslim-ban-green-card-holders/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/trump-muslim-ban-green-c...
  - Cyph0n 10y ago
    I am aware of that, but from my understanding she is a US citizen.
    - 10y ago
chuhnk 10y ago
Is anyone in this thread muslim? Just curious. I am muslim. Travelling to the US looks very different since 9/11. I was born in the UK, grew up here, scottish accent, fair skin, british passport, work in tech. I still get "randomly selected" every time I travel to the US. Every so often when I've landed somewhere I'll be asked to wait in some immigration section for 1-2 hours, while they do God knows what. I say nothing. I keep my mouth shut. I wait for them to do their checks and I go about my business. Travelling to the US is a pretty terrible experience if you're muslim. I make sure to appear as non-muslim as possible whenever I'm travelling there. Note: I have no plans to travel to the US while Trump is president.
- wyldfire 10y ago
  I recently met a Scottish man at a tech conference in the US. He was born in KSA and it seemed like he has lived most of his adult life in the UK. I asked him if he was worried: he had arrived in the US just after/during the Executive Order 13769 debacle. He was crystal clear that he felt very strongly that since he had done nothing wrong that he should have nothing to fear from authorities. He claimed that his entry into the US this time was uneventful, but one time in the past (~2004-2010?) he was detained for several hours because of something that sounded like mistaken identity (some horrible Soundex match for someone on a list, probably). I don't know whether/which religion he might prefer. He wore no religious ornaments or other items that would signify that he might be muslim. If it's relevant, he looked similar to how many Middle-Eastern/Medditeranean men I've met. Anyways, it's a [second-hand] data point for an Arab-state-born individual who seemed to have different feelings. For my part, I apologize for poor treatment you've gotten at the border and I hope you're able to visit again in the future.
- HalfwayToDice 10y ago
  "I have no plans to travel to the US while Trump is president." Statements like this baffle me. Literally no-one in any position of authority cares if an individual doesn't want to come to the USA. Also, if you exclude the USA for its border policies then you also have to exclude the majority of countries in the world, most of which have stricter controls, especially in Muslim countries. You are basically restricting yourself to Europe.
sersi 10y ago
And in that, the terrorists have won. Before 9/11 and other attacks people were not scared and Muslim Americans were not as discriminated against[1]. Now with the help of propaganda, of Fox news and of the Government using the panic to justify taking away freedom, people are scared and a lot of them don't think twice about reducing the rights of other Americans just because of their origin. The aim of Terrorism is to bring terror to the masses and in that the attacks have been a huge success. Never mind that more people die from malnutrition per year than people from terrorist attacks. Or closer to home, more people die from traffic accident than from terrorist attacks. It's not the number of deaths that's important, it's just the power that the attack has over the consciousness of the masses and how much of their ideals they give up and destroy. [1] they were discriminated like any minority because people are monkeys and are scared of anything different by nature but it was bearable
shas3 10y ago
Can someone clarify why the author talks specifically about Trump's America? This kind of excessive profiling at ports of entry happened under GWB and Obama too. I have heard many anecdotes in the last 15 years. Is there a provable and statistically significant increase in intensity or number of such incidents? In its absence, we should settle for a prior for likelihood-of-being-profiled that is defined by pre-Trump rates. We can't arbitrarily update this prior based on our political opinions.
- xbmcuser 10y ago
  She mentioned that it started with 911 and Bush. Increased under Obama and under Trump it is even worse. So to her it is getting progressively worse.
trump2016 10y ago
Oh wow that's horrible that we will no longer be graced with your presence
- dang 10y ago
  Comments like this aren't allowed here. We've banned this account for trolling. We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13775490 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13775490 and marked it off-topic.
dmix 10y ago
> Some had been kicked off planes for speaking Arabic on a cell phone This was proven to be false or at a very minimum largely misrepresented. The guy kicked off was a Youtube star known for pulling pranks and filming them. It wasn't simply because he was a regular passenger speaking Arabic. Sadly that didn't stop people from spreading this headline. I still see this claim being made often. There are cases where people are acting irrationally scared of muslims no doubt. Airlines have been sold to the public as this scary place, which is the primary problem. That being said, besides those minority of travelers who discriminate against muslims and cause problems, I do not believe airlines themselves are conspiring to kick people off flights simply because they are Muslim. Stories such as this reinforce this idea and create an unnecessary level of fear in the public. The other story he mentions about the two women getting kicked off is similar. The bar for getting kicked off the flight is pretty low and many non-mulsim people have been for similar small things as this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/08/muslim-woman-kicked-off-american-airlines-flight-islamophobia https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/08/muslim-woman-k... The customs agents though are another story. That whole group of people need to be trained better or given less power. I've been secondary screened for the silliest things of reasons twice when I used to travel back/forth from Canada/SF.
- gkya 10y ago
  The title of the article you linked is "I didn't realize how often Muslims get kicked off planes, until it happened to me"
  - dmix 10y ago
    Opps, That was the second story he mentioned. I didn't make that clear in my comment, updated.
HalfwayToDice 10y ago
Please do not take the author's advice. Deleting text messages from your phone before getting to any customs is a terrible idea, it makes you look like you are hiding something.

87 points by hownottowrite 10y ago

adornedCupcake 10y ago

Jeez, dark times.

grenoire 10y ago

Isn't this the case for many people travelling to the US? It's really not about the travel ban, or being Muslim.

accountface 10y ago
For many it's a possibility, for Muslims it's an inevitability.
- TillE 10y ago
  I still can't get over the fact that they detained Muhammad Ali Jr. for hours. Obviously not all Muslims will be detained everywhere. It's just a free license for any asshole CBP agent to do whatever the hell they feel like.
romwell 10y ago
Take a Quran with you on your next trip here and find out! If you are having second thoughts about this idea - herein lies your answer.
- komali2 10y ago
  Meh, I'm a white dude but I'll give it a shot.

falsestprophet 10y ago

He has a lot of ideas about who is a real American. Does he also have a lot of ideas about who is a real Saudi, a real Yemeni, a real Moroccan, a real Indonesian, a real Nigerian?

the-dude 10y ago

All / only feelings, no substance at all. I have always felt treated like a suspect around US / Canadian / Swiss borders. Have been ordered to take of shoes etc. There is literally nothing in the whole piece except feelings.

nyreed 10y ago
You say that like feelings are something not worth discussing.
- the-dude 10y ago
  I knew my comment would be countered like this. I don't think they are not worth discussing, but the title of the piece is pretty sensational. I just commented there are no facts, nothing was real. She felt the way she did. Sure. But travel has been this way 15+ years now. edit:typos
  - bakul 10y ago
    Rafia is a she. Not that it changes anything. This fear is much worse now. Watching what you say, the language you speak, books you read, what may be on your computers/phone, your demeanor, etc. Because of that fear she tried to remove anything that may signal she is a Muslim to the CBP. That makes the title not sensational. [But it didn't work as they still asked her if she was a Muslim.]
    - the-dude 10y ago
      It does not change anything, but it explains a lot.
      - romwell 10y ago
        I'd be curious to know what exactly this explained.
  - romwell 10y ago

altendo 10y ago

In 2014 I traveled to Ghana for a friend's wedding there. The day I flew back, I had to go through a second, thorough security checkpoint at the gate before I could hope to board my plane. I didn't have anything to worry about - I'm considered one of the "'real' Americans" that the OP mentions - but I was still struck by what sort of impression this might leave on others coming to the United States with me. Namely, I thought that it sent the message that the US, before even receiving visitors, was saying "I don't trust you". There is always that balance between security and openness; I don't deny that it's difficult to manage. Let's not pretend, however, that people aren't affected by xenophobic rhetoric. They are. What message does it send to actual Americans citizens like the OP when we lambaste them for their religion? Is that who we are as Americans, those who spread fear to those who don't look or act "real"? I'm not liking where this country is going.

Klathmon 10y ago
I'm just so shocked by how... normal it's gotten. When I was growing up, I was taught that you shouldn't ever think differently of someone because of their skin color, their ethnicity, or their religion. Obviously you should always strive to never judge a person by any one thing, but those 3 were practically beat into me as being something you just don't do. So much so that we had laws against it. When I first started hearing the term "Muslim ban" my jaw hit the floor. I reacted the same way I would if someone proposed a "Nigger ban". It just sounded so horribly wrong and misguided and awful. Like every fiber of my being was screaming that this is such a terrible awful thing, but nobody else seemed to be reacting to it. In my mind, this country was built on an openness to all religions. And I'm just so shocked to see that such a large number of people would not only disagree with that, but advocate for the opposite!
- Consultant32452 10y ago
  I don't support the so-called "Muslim ban" either, but it's worth acknowledging that anyone even calling it a "Muslim ban," including the POTUS, is just doing so to get a reaction out of people. And it worked. How about calling it a ban on countries we happen to be bombing right now? That headline isn't quite as salacious, but is more accurate than calling it a Muslim ban. We bombed I think 5 of the 7 countries in the ban within the last year. The fact that people seem more upset about stopping some people at the border than they are about dropping cluster bombs on them in their home country is really puzzling to me.

carlmcqueen 10y ago

My father's job included a lot of travel, so I've traveled through airports and out of the country for more than 30 years. The humanity from travel has been stripped from all of us, in spite of this I have the deepest sympathy for the writer of this article because while my humanity feels ignored while I travel due to corporations choices of how we are to be treated on their planes I am still in the "real american" category she* spoke of. The greatest of my fears are having to sit next to someone who needs as much of the small provided seat I need causing us to have to "suck in" our shoulders so they only sort of lean on each other. I don't have any text conversations on my phones or emails that would flag anything but in the same breath, I've never had to think or worry about that either. edit: fixed gender issues.

farnsworth 10y ago
I downloaded a bunch of issues of "Dabiq", the ISIS newsletter, out of curiosity, then later took my laptop through security multiple times without even thinking about it until I read this article. Because I'm also a "real american".
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- canadian_voter 10y ago
  Last time I flew into the US I was reading a copy of The Reluctant Fundamentalist on the plane. But I'm white, so nobody cared. Next time I think I'll try The Anarchist Cookbook.
l8again 10y ago
quick nit: the author is a woman. I see other commenters making the same mistake. So, thought I would correct it.

lolc 10y ago

From my stoner years, I can relate. Nowadays I'm in the "unafraid and unselfconscious" category again. Edit: That doesn't mean I'm going to visit the US again with those checks in place.

ilanco 10y ago

I am not a Muslim and neither an American citizen. After reading multiple articles like these it has become clear to me that any visitor to the United States should backup and wipe their phones and take the minimum amount of electronics. It's not that I have something to hide, is the invasion of my privacy that bothers me.

qqg3 10y ago
I've seen a few places suggest wiped phones are a little suspect, so maybe populate them with a little bit of "neutral" content?
xeromal 10y ago
My Samsung S7 just released a thing called secure folder which creates a second version of your phone user that can have it's own apps and photos. I wonder if people are aware of it. https://news.samsung.com/global/for-your-eyes-only-secure-folder-now-available-for-galaxy-s7-galaxy-s7-edge https://news.samsung.com/global/for-your-eyes-only-secure-fo...
- jedikv 10y ago
  You're better off just backing up to the cloud and wiping. Having hidden data can be compromising if they discover the presence of it.

saalweachter 10y ago

This line from near the end jumped out at me: > "I was asked if I was Muslim and what I did and where I lived." The hell? I know I'm a naive white guy who doesn't travel much, but can they really ask you your religion when you cross the border? That sounds illegal and unconstitutional and offensive as hell.

Someone1234 10y ago
Yes, legally they can. CBP has broad powers to investigate. They can ask who you're sleeping with, your sexual orientation, what your religion is, your parent's religion, and on. Most Americans aren't used to this, but foreigners visiting your country have been putting up with this stuff since 9/11. Everything on your person is subject to search. They've now extended that to things not physically on your person (e.g. cloud accounts, social media logins, etc). PS - It may be illegal to deny entry due to many of these things. We're talking about what they can "legally" ask about, and the answer is just about anything.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  A US citizen can't be denied entry. Others can be denied entry for a long list of reasons: https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/757/~/friend,-relative,-etc.-denied-entry-to-the-u.s https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/757/~/friend,-r.... And there is little to stop an individual border officer from simply using one of those reasons as a pretext to arbitrarily deny entry.
- mkaziz 10y ago
  They're allowed to ask a US Citizen their religion? Isn't that a protected class?
  - Someone1234 10y ago
    Yes they are. I don't follow what protected classes have to do with this. Class protections stop someone from being denied employment, denied services, or discriminated against. It doesn't make it some kind of secret, or "don't ask, don't tell." CPS have been given the power to investigate US Citizens for other criminal infractions (like smuggling, identity theft, and terrorism) so they can ask invasive questions and refer it to other law enforcement.

newsbinator 10y ago

It's neither illegal nor unconstitutional. And I'm not certain it's offensive. If CBP asked you if there were any movies or cosplay groups on which you have based your value system, that wouldn't be overly offensive. Here they're asking whether it's a particular book and cosplay group.

ISL 10y ago
I heartily disagree: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." The Constitution is quite clear on this point. I've never understood where Customs finds probable cause for the expansion of search powers.
- umanwizard 10y ago
  It's because you're consenting to the search. CBP can't force you to answer anything. You are free to withdraw your request to enter the US at any time and return to your country of origin.
  - ISL 10y ago
    Not if I'm a citizen.
    - umanwizard 10y ago
      Sure and if you're a citizen you aren't required to answer any of their questions if you don't want to.
      - ISL 10y ago
        "Agents at ports of entry may question people about their citizenship and what they are bringing into the country. Even though you always have the right to remain silent, if you don’t answer questions to establish your citizenship, officials may deny you entry to the U.S. or detain you for search and/or questioning. Agents may search any person, the inside of any vehicle, and all passenger belongings. Agents do not need a warrant, any suspicion of wrongdoing, or consent to do any of these things." https://www.acluaz.org/sites/default/files/field_documents/aclu_border_rights.pdf https://www.acluaz.org/sites/default/files/field_documents/a...

xienze 10y ago

I wonder how the author feels about non-Muslims being banned from Mecca?

m_fayer 10y ago
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Y_Y 10y ago
Presumably fine. Why would you let infidels into a holy place? While persecuting people for circumstances of their birth is IMHO a moral wrong, adults are free to choose their religion (in "secular" countries like the US at least). The entails a set of beliefs, privileges and responsibilities. Whether or not it's fair, border security in a lot of places is anti-Muslim. It's part of the belief system of border agents and (some) voters. Islam and not-Islam are at odds here, just as they are in Mecca. I especially feel sorry for non-religious "Arab-looking" people who get caught up in this.
komali2 10y ago
Probably that It's Bad.
alphabettsy 10y ago
Okay cool? But why change the subject? That's certainly not defined by US policies as the author points to.

microcolonel 10y ago

> Some had been kicked off planes for speaking Arabic on a cell phone One of the two prominent alleged examples of this was a youtube prankster who stood up and started yelling into a telephone in the middle of an airplane, then jump-cut a video to make it look like people were criticizing him for speaking Arabic. The other prominent alleged example was of the son of a Iraqi diplomat who was killed under Saddam Hussein's regime; and though it may seem unfair, the FBI wanted to question him, he has a documented connection to politics in Iraq. There's a decent chance there that it had nothing to do with speaking Arabic on the plane, and the FBI wanted to question him anyhow. Other than that I guess I'd need to dig deeper, but this is a story some people want to come true. I am screened at airports, I don't know why exactly, I suspect they know something I don't know about my family. I factory reset all electronics before bringing them across the border, because I don't want to be asked to unlock them and submit to a search. Maybe it's theatre, maybe it's unfair, maybe it's a show of force, maybe it's discriminatory; but you know what, lots of people get stopped at the border. I can't pretend to know why I get stopped, and I don't think anyone else should either.

Cyph0n 10y ago

I'm a Muslim American (and Arab!) myself, and I'd like to chime in. Firstly, let me state that I did not travel back to the US during the Muslim ban. Nonetheless, I couldn't help but feel that the author was a bit too paranoid. According to a quick Google search, she likely wasn't wearing a hijab, which drastically decreases the amount of "attention" she'd receive during security checks. More importantly, she's American! The way I understand it, there is simply no way for her to be denied entry to the US. I understand her being worried about the content of her laptop, but again this would even worry a "true American". Remember the guy who was kicked off a plane for working on a math problem? It's important to note that the brunt of the Muslim ban was aimed at foreigners and US visa holders. My experience has been nothing but positive to be frank. Granted, I'm a male, so it's slightly more difficult to do "religious profiling". On my trip on Delta to Paris in late Dec 2016, I was comfortable speaking Arabic on the plane: I was seated next to a older Libyan lady who was traveling to visit family, and we had a nice chat as the plane landed. She was wearing hijab, and also had nothing bad to say about travelling to/from the US. Of course, this does not at all mean that I'm fine with the ban! On the contrary, I think it was an extremely stupid and short sighted decision, and I'm honestly quite disgusted that POTUS is still pushing for it.

altendo 10y ago
> there is simply no way for her to be denied entry to the US As was proven when Trump instituted his executive order, people with valid visas and even green cards were denied entry into the US[1]. That's since been reversed in the courts... but that doesn't mean that the current, or even a future, administration won't try again in the future. (I doubt Trump will, after getting blocked in the courts... but you never know.) [1] http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/trump-muslim-ban-green-card-holders/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/trump-muslim-ban-green-c...
- Cyph0n 10y ago
  I am aware of that, but from my understanding she is a US citizen.
  - 10y ago

chuhnk 10y ago

Is anyone in this thread muslim? Just curious. I am muslim. Travelling to the US looks very different since 9/11. I was born in the UK, grew up here, scottish accent, fair skin, british passport, work in tech. I still get "randomly selected" every time I travel to the US. Every so often when I've landed somewhere I'll be asked to wait in some immigration section for 1-2 hours, while they do God knows what. I say nothing. I keep my mouth shut. I wait for them to do their checks and I go about my business. Travelling to the US is a pretty terrible experience if you're muslim. I make sure to appear as non-muslim as possible whenever I'm travelling there. Note: I have no plans to travel to the US while Trump is president.

wyldfire 10y ago
I recently met a Scottish man at a tech conference in the US. He was born in KSA and it seemed like he has lived most of his adult life in the UK. I asked him if he was worried: he had arrived in the US just after/during the Executive Order 13769 debacle. He was crystal clear that he felt very strongly that since he had done nothing wrong that he should have nothing to fear from authorities. He claimed that his entry into the US this time was uneventful, but one time in the past (~2004-2010?) he was detained for several hours because of something that sounded like mistaken identity (some horrible Soundex match for someone on a list, probably). I don't know whether/which religion he might prefer. He wore no religious ornaments or other items that would signify that he might be muslim. If it's relevant, he looked similar to how many Middle-Eastern/Medditeranean men I've met. Anyways, it's a [second-hand] data point for an Arab-state-born individual who seemed to have different feelings. For my part, I apologize for poor treatment you've gotten at the border and I hope you're able to visit again in the future.
HalfwayToDice 10y ago
"I have no plans to travel to the US while Trump is president." Statements like this baffle me. Literally no-one in any position of authority cares if an individual doesn't want to come to the USA. Also, if you exclude the USA for its border policies then you also have to exclude the majority of countries in the world, most of which have stricter controls, especially in Muslim countries. You are basically restricting yourself to Europe.

sersi 10y ago

And in that, the terrorists have won. Before 9/11 and other attacks people were not scared and Muslim Americans were not as discriminated against[1]. Now with the help of propaganda, of Fox news and of the Government using the panic to justify taking away freedom, people are scared and a lot of them don't think twice about reducing the rights of other Americans just because of their origin. The aim of Terrorism is to bring terror to the masses and in that the attacks have been a huge success. Never mind that more people die from malnutrition per year than people from terrorist attacks. Or closer to home, more people die from traffic accident than from terrorist attacks. It's not the number of deaths that's important, it's just the power that the attack has over the consciousness of the masses and how much of their ideals they give up and destroy. [1] they were discriminated like any minority because people are monkeys and are scared of anything different by nature but it was bearable

shas3 10y ago

Can someone clarify why the author talks specifically about Trump's America? This kind of excessive profiling at ports of entry happened under GWB and Obama too. I have heard many anecdotes in the last 15 years. Is there a provable and statistically significant increase in intensity or number of such incidents? In its absence, we should settle for a prior for likelihood-of-being-profiled that is defined by pre-Trump rates. We can't arbitrarily update this prior based on our political opinions.

xbmcuser 10y ago
She mentioned that it started with 911 and Bush. Increased under Obama and under Trump it is even worse. So to her it is getting progressively worse.

trump2016 10y ago

Oh wow that's horrible that we will no longer be graced with your presence

dang 10y ago
Comments like this aren't allowed here. We've banned this account for trolling. We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13775490 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13775490 and marked it off-topic.

dmix 10y ago

> Some had been kicked off planes for speaking Arabic on a cell phone This was proven to be false or at a very minimum largely misrepresented. The guy kicked off was a Youtube star known for pulling pranks and filming them. It wasn't simply because he was a regular passenger speaking Arabic. Sadly that didn't stop people from spreading this headline. I still see this claim being made often. There are cases where people are acting irrationally scared of muslims no doubt. Airlines have been sold to the public as this scary place, which is the primary problem. That being said, besides those minority of travelers who discriminate against muslims and cause problems, I do not believe airlines themselves are conspiring to kick people off flights simply because they are Muslim. Stories such as this reinforce this idea and create an unnecessary level of fear in the public. The other story he mentions about the two women getting kicked off is similar. The bar for getting kicked off the flight is pretty low and many non-mulsim people have been for similar small things as this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/08/muslim-woman-kicked-off-american-airlines-flight-islamophobia https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/08/muslim-woman-k... The customs agents though are another story. That whole group of people need to be trained better or given less power. I've been secondary screened for the silliest things of reasons twice when I used to travel back/forth from Canada/SF.

gkya 10y ago
The title of the article you linked is "I didn't realize how often Muslims get kicked off planes, until it happened to me"
- dmix 10y ago
  Opps, That was the second story he mentioned. I didn't make that clear in my comment, updated.

HalfwayToDice 10y ago

Please do not take the author's advice. Deleting text messages from your phone before getting to any customs is a terrible idea, it makes you look like you are hiding something.