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> Link gets more health and stamina as you progress, and you can acquire stronger weapons and armor, but he never gets stronger himself. He doesn’t learn to swi

> Link gets more health and stamina as you progress, and you can acquire stronger weapons and armor, but he never gets stronger himself. He doesn’t learn to swing a sword or shoot a bow any better. But you do. If this is true, that's wonderful, and if more games became more like that again, I'd be interested in them again. Even just the fact that the reviewer mentioned this as a good thing made me smile.

agentgt 10y ago
This somewhat reminds me of the rogue game Brogue which I highly recommend (albeit very challenging) but slightly different. With Brogue there are no experience levels. You only get stronger by finding potions of strength (which I believe are normalized distributed and somewhat guaranteed so its not completely random but close to it). Everything else is crap you find. In fact killing monsters is not worth it unless they are in your way or keeping them alive is too dangerous. Deciding what you do with your items and which items to improve is pretty important. Most items are disposable/consumable. The only exception (IIRC) is artifact items. I wish more games would be like that to avoid grinding and provide interesting replay gaming. As for the Zelda game I hope (despite nostalgia) they don't continue with the hero saves the princess trope... seriously... like when can you play as Zelda. Even Super Mario 2 (US) made that possible (even though it was just a dream apparently).
- metafex 10y ago
  If someone wants to try brouge, I can recommend this online version: http://brogue.roguelikelike.com http://brogue.roguelikelike.com
phamilton 10y ago
Isn't this true of all games in the Zelda series?
- doodpants 10y ago
  Yes, and I found it strange that the article's statement could be interpreted as implying that it was new for Zelda games, as opposed to a departure from most mainstream RPGs.
- alphonsegaston 10y ago
  I think the intention is to contrast it with the open world WRPG's this new Zelda is taking cues from.
- Domenic_S 10y ago
  In Zelda II you learn the down-thrust and up-thrust techniques as the game progresses; Link does become better at swordplay over time.
  - ursus_bonum 10y ago
    That game would have only been improved had down-thrust been available from the beginning.
  - tiglionabbit 10y ago
    Well Zelda 2 had experience points, which is unlike any other Zelda game. Minish Cap has some OP sword tutor moves in it though.
- 794CD01 10y ago
  No. In Twilight Princess for Gamecube and Wii, Link would learn various sword techniques in certain spots in-game.
  - tiglionabbit 10y ago
    This game has a sword tutor as well, but you were able to do the techniques all along. It doesn't unlock them.
- astrange 10y ago
  You get various attack/puzzle solving items at fixed points in Zelda; they're usually needed to solve the next dungeon, in not-really-intellectually-stimulating ways where you look at the puzzle and immediately know how to apply the item you just got. Link Between Worlds added a shop where you can rent all the items in the game and solve everything out of order.
croon 10y ago
I've been lamenting this ever since CoD 4 which many hail as a pinnacle in gaming. That was the day that gaming went from performance to grind. In QuakeWorld when I started a match, I had the exact same pre-conditions as Thresh, other than me sucking as a player in comparison. The same was true in Counter-Strike (any iteration), and now Dota 2, which I've played for 2000 hours. I've stopped playing every CoD, BF, LoL and any other metagame-unlocks/progression game within 100 hours because they've replaced real progression (you getting better) with synthetic progression with account levels, unlockables, game-affecting items, (microtransactions on top of that) etc, and some strategizing on what to equip out of what you've unlocked, but that's a poor reward. I'm glad more big studios are going against that grain.
- sirbranedamuj 10y ago
  It's funny that you cite CoD4 as an example of this because the first weapons and arguably the first perks are among the best in the game. I don't know about later games in the series, but CoD4 handled sidegrades extremely well. You only ever unlocked options, not improvements. Giving players all options up front is daunting. Giving it to them in a slow trickle is fun and helps them learn things.
  - SerLava 10y ago
    Cod4's starting loadout was pretty good compared to some games. It was a great all-around loadout. But there were definitely powerful niches filled by unlockables. In comparison, some of the Battlefield games literally give you empty slots when you start playing, which can be filled by 100% advantageous perks or whatever. Like doing more damage with no accompanying penalty. Which is ridiculous.
  - 013a 10y ago
    CoD4 is an example, but it is listed because it was one of the first modern games to toy with this idea. It executed the idea well enough, but it also paved the road for future games to execute the idea poorly.
- purple-again 10y ago
on_and_off 10y ago
you might want to try something like Hyper Light Drifter. It takes some inspiration from the old zelda game and it is definitely a game where you need to get better in order to win. You character gets a bit stronger has the game progresses : new capabilities like dash but mostly you get better at it. It is extremely gratifying to win a tough boss fight because you have learned how to maneuver your character.
EpicEng 10y ago
This is the case for every Zelda game ever.
- no_wave 10y ago
  I don't really understand what parts of the game are really departures from the Zelda formula. Swapping out the small mechanics like climbing and cooking this could be an Ocarina of Time review.
  - datruth29 10y ago
    Outside of the first hour where you acquire the 4 relics the designers require you to have in the game, the game is all open world. You never have to complete a dungeon. You can go straight to the main boss of the game if you chose to. That's a complete departure of the Zelda formula.
    - kupiakos 10y ago
      IIRC you can do the same in the original Zelda as well once you get the raft and bombs.
      - tiglionabbit 10y ago
        Which is why this game is about going back to its roots. All the way back to Zelda 1.
- Domenic_S 10y ago
  In Zelda II you learn the down-thrust and up-thrust techniques as the game progresses; Link does become better at swordplay over time.
jressey 10y ago
I think this explains the success of the Souls series. Yes, you do get to level up and get new gear, but the game presents problems that can only be solved through skill and thought. I honestly don't think it's feasible to grind even 500 hours and expect to get anywhere purely by being OP.
gknapp 10y ago
This has been true with every Zelda game I've played, more or less. Link never gains experience or levels, but you get better at using the tools and solving the puzzles. The caveat is that you can often get a better primary weapon that effectively makes you stronger. That being said, aside from Skyward Sword, Zelda has always been about falling in love with the art and lore, as well as problem solving through the dungeons.

agentgt 10y ago

This somewhat reminds me of the rogue game Brogue which I highly recommend (albeit very challenging) but slightly different. With Brogue there are no experience levels. You only get stronger by finding potions of strength (which I believe are normalized distributed and somewhat guaranteed so its not completely random but close to it). Everything else is crap you find. In fact killing monsters is not worth it unless they are in your way or keeping them alive is too dangerous. Deciding what you do with your items and which items to improve is pretty important. Most items are disposable/consumable. The only exception (IIRC) is artifact items. I wish more games would be like that to avoid grinding and provide interesting replay gaming. As for the Zelda game I hope (despite nostalgia) they don't continue with the hero saves the princess trope... seriously... like when can you play as Zelda. Even Super Mario 2 (US) made that possible (even though it was just a dream apparently).

metafex 10y ago
If someone wants to try brouge, I can recommend this online version: http://brogue.roguelikelike.com http://brogue.roguelikelike.com

phamilton 10y ago

Isn't this true of all games in the Zelda series?

doodpants 10y ago
Yes, and I found it strange that the article's statement could be interpreted as implying that it was new for Zelda games, as opposed to a departure from most mainstream RPGs.
alphonsegaston 10y ago
I think the intention is to contrast it with the open world WRPG's this new Zelda is taking cues from.
Domenic_S 10y ago
In Zelda II you learn the down-thrust and up-thrust techniques as the game progresses; Link does become better at swordplay over time.
- ursus_bonum 10y ago
  That game would have only been improved had down-thrust been available from the beginning.
- tiglionabbit 10y ago
  Well Zelda 2 had experience points, which is unlike any other Zelda game. Minish Cap has some OP sword tutor moves in it though.
794CD01 10y ago
No. In Twilight Princess for Gamecube and Wii, Link would learn various sword techniques in certain spots in-game.
- tiglionabbit 10y ago
  This game has a sword tutor as well, but you were able to do the techniques all along. It doesn't unlock them.
astrange 10y ago
You get various attack/puzzle solving items at fixed points in Zelda; they're usually needed to solve the next dungeon, in not-really-intellectually-stimulating ways where you look at the puzzle and immediately know how to apply the item you just got. Link Between Worlds added a shop where you can rent all the items in the game and solve everything out of order.

croon 10y ago

I've been lamenting this ever since CoD 4 which many hail as a pinnacle in gaming. That was the day that gaming went from performance to grind. In QuakeWorld when I started a match, I had the exact same pre-conditions as Thresh, other than me sucking as a player in comparison. The same was true in Counter-Strike (any iteration), and now Dota 2, which I've played for 2000 hours. I've stopped playing every CoD, BF, LoL and any other metagame-unlocks/progression game within 100 hours because they've replaced real progression (you getting better) with synthetic progression with account levels, unlockables, game-affecting items, (microtransactions on top of that) etc, and some strategizing on what to equip out of what you've unlocked, but that's a poor reward. I'm glad more big studios are going against that grain.

sirbranedamuj 10y ago
It's funny that you cite CoD4 as an example of this because the first weapons and arguably the first perks are among the best in the game. I don't know about later games in the series, but CoD4 handled sidegrades extremely well. You only ever unlocked options, not improvements. Giving players all options up front is daunting. Giving it to them in a slow trickle is fun and helps them learn things.
- SerLava 10y ago
  Cod4's starting loadout was pretty good compared to some games. It was a great all-around loadout. But there were definitely powerful niches filled by unlockables. In comparison, some of the Battlefield games literally give you empty slots when you start playing, which can be filled by 100% advantageous perks or whatever. Like doing more damage with no accompanying penalty. Which is ridiculous.
- 013a 10y ago
  CoD4 is an example, but it is listed because it was one of the first modern games to toy with this idea. It executed the idea well enough, but it also paved the road for future games to execute the idea poorly.
purple-again 10y ago

on_and_off 10y ago

you might want to try something like Hyper Light Drifter. It takes some inspiration from the old zelda game and it is definitely a game where you need to get better in order to win. You character gets a bit stronger has the game progresses : new capabilities like dash but mostly you get better at it. It is extremely gratifying to win a tough boss fight because you have learned how to maneuver your character.

EpicEng 10y ago

This is the case for every Zelda game ever.

no_wave 10y ago
I don't really understand what parts of the game are really departures from the Zelda formula. Swapping out the small mechanics like climbing and cooking this could be an Ocarina of Time review.
- datruth29 10y ago
  Outside of the first hour where you acquire the 4 relics the designers require you to have in the game, the game is all open world. You never have to complete a dungeon. You can go straight to the main boss of the game if you chose to. That's a complete departure of the Zelda formula.
  - kupiakos 10y ago
    IIRC you can do the same in the original Zelda as well once you get the raft and bombs.
    - tiglionabbit 10y ago
      Which is why this game is about going back to its roots. All the way back to Zelda 1.
Domenic_S 10y ago
In Zelda II you learn the down-thrust and up-thrust techniques as the game progresses; Link does become better at swordplay over time.

jressey 10y ago

I think this explains the success of the Souls series. Yes, you do get to level up and get new gear, but the game presents problems that can only be solved through skill and thought. I honestly don't think it's feasible to grind even 500 hours and expect to get anywhere purely by being OP.

gknapp 10y ago

This has been true with every Zelda game I've played, more or less. Link never gains experience or levels, but you get better at using the tools and solving the puzzles. The caveat is that you can often get a better primary weapon that effectively makes you stronger. That being said, aside from Skyward Sword, Zelda has always been about falling in love with the art and lore, as well as problem solving through the dungeons.