4 ms·

Ban proposed on SF bicycle 'chop shops'

12 points by apsec112 10y ago

personjerry 10y ago
Seems like a rather indirect (and thus inefficient?) way of solving the problem of bike theft
- pizza234 10y ago
  I think the headline is fair; there's no mention anywhere of "solving the problem of bike theft". Based on the content, the idea is to give policemen more power (that is, seizing) to handle chop shops which are literally located in the streets.
kbart 10y ago
I don't get it. If everyone (including police) knows that these bikes are stolen, why can't they arrest people that operate such "shops"? Or is property (bike) theft somewhat legal in US? Also, if somebody stole my bike (or anything) I would get really pissed off and knowing where to find these guys (like in this case) I would go get it back myself, possibly with much more dire consequences than police. Doesn't it happen in SF?
- the-dude 10y ago
  Knowing ~ Suspecting != proof. And there you go.
- pmiller2 10y ago
  Because it's really, really hard to actually prove that a stolen bike is stolen. First, it has to be reported stolen, which does not always happen. There also has to be some way of positively identifying the bike, like a serial number, included in the report. Bikes do have serial numbers but not many people record them.
- 9935c101ab17a66 10y ago
  You really don't understand this? You don't realize what a big city SF is, or how organized these groups can be, or how hard it is to track down bike serial numbers, or how that task is impossible after the bikes are "chopped"? Or how you'd get totally wrecked if you tried to show up and exert your dire consequences on an organized group of bike thieves? If you spent a few minutes thinking about these things, I think you'd have something valuable to add.
franciscop 10y ago
In Japan they have a really logic system where each bike just has a registration number. When you buy a bike they can easily change the owner through some paperwork (there's a lot of paperwork in general in Japan but it's also really efficient). It's really just the same as a motorbike or car, just it's not for ID from far away so they are small stickers instead.
- revelation 10y ago
  They are chop shops presumably because they chop the bike up into its constituent parts, of which only really the frame will have any sort of marking or serial number.
  - franciscop 10y ago
    Yes but in this way, until it is all chop up it's easy to differentiate a stolen bike from a non-stolen bike. If the police just sees a bunch of parts then it's the same as now, but if they see someone chopping a bike they could consult the registration and inmediately check if the bike is stolen or not. I think one of the most important parts for organized stolen bikes is the frame while other parts are more for small-time things (correct me if I'm wrong).
- mschuetz 10y ago
  We have/had something similar in my city. It does nothing to prevent bike theft or getting your stolen bike back.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - 8draco8 10y ago
    I'm just assuming here but from what you are saying, your city is an exception, and rest of the country doesn't have that law so I can come to your city from some country side with my bike and lack of registration number on my bike wouldn't be surprise to any one. It would work only if it would be mandatory that every bike in the country have to have registered owner (like cars and motorbikes) so you would never expect buying a bike without registration papers and police could easily check if bike is registered for you or not.
skookumchuck 10y ago
You could put any longish number on it, then report that number to the police. Electric engraving tools aren't expensive, around $20. Legislation could mandate a website that handed out numbers to people who registered and provided a way to report those numbers as stolen. Registrants could provide a pic of their bike with the numbers. This won't eliminate the problem, but it will provide an easy and free method that people could identify their bikes, report them as stolen, and the police can identify which bikes are stolen and return them.
- cr1895 10y ago
  I learned the other day that something similar was happening in the US in the 80s with peoples' social security numbers. Someone was asking why a turntable from the 80s had a big social security number etched into the back; apparently, the initiative was to use it as an identifier in case the item was stolen. Now of course it's rather ludicrous to use your SSN in that way but in principle it seems like a good idea to prove ownership.
  - skookumchuck 10y ago
    Engraving the SSN on things was commonplace before the internet and identity theft became a big thing. Drivers License numbers were used, too.
ciaranm 10y ago
There's a UK-based service supported by the police that helps with this sort of thing: https://www.bikeregister.com/ https://www.bikeregister.com/ I haven't had my bike stolen, but friends who have say this helped.
rodionos 10y ago
While the proposed legislation appears to make sense, the lack of bike crime statistics makes it hard to judge if squeezing the distribution part of the crime chain makes sense. The basics: how many 'chop shops' are there? How many bikes do they sell? If the numbers are small, it's just another burden on local police which may have other priorities on their plate, e.g. innercity crime/drugs. One of the countries that tracks bike theft as a separate category is Sweden[0]. > In 2015, 66,500 bicycle thefts were processed¹. > Investigation was commenced for 6.5 per cent ... while the majority were dismissed with no investigation. [0] https://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/bicycle-theft.html https://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statist... There are 10 mln people living in Sweden, San Francisco has 1 mln. So there must be like 6K bike thefts annually. How many will be prevented by closing a few chop shops?

12 points by apsec112 10y ago

personjerry 10y ago

Seems like a rather indirect (and thus inefficient?) way of solving the problem of bike theft

pizza234 10y ago
I think the headline is fair; there's no mention anywhere of "solving the problem of bike theft". Based on the content, the idea is to give policemen more power (that is, seizing) to handle chop shops which are literally located in the streets.

kbart 10y ago

I don't get it. If everyone (including police) knows that these bikes are stolen, why can't they arrest people that operate such "shops"? Or is property (bike) theft somewhat legal in US? Also, if somebody stole my bike (or anything) I would get really pissed off and knowing where to find these guys (like in this case) I would go get it back myself, possibly with much more dire consequences than police. Doesn't it happen in SF?

the-dude 10y ago
Knowing ~ Suspecting != proof. And there you go.
pmiller2 10y ago
Because it's really, really hard to actually prove that a stolen bike is stolen. First, it has to be reported stolen, which does not always happen. There also has to be some way of positively identifying the bike, like a serial number, included in the report. Bikes do have serial numbers but not many people record them.
9935c101ab17a66 10y ago
You really don't understand this? You don't realize what a big city SF is, or how organized these groups can be, or how hard it is to track down bike serial numbers, or how that task is impossible after the bikes are "chopped"? Or how you'd get totally wrecked if you tried to show up and exert your dire consequences on an organized group of bike thieves? If you spent a few minutes thinking about these things, I think you'd have something valuable to add.

franciscop 10y ago

In Japan they have a really logic system where each bike just has a registration number. When you buy a bike they can easily change the owner through some paperwork (there's a lot of paperwork in general in Japan but it's also really efficient). It's really just the same as a motorbike or car, just it's not for ID from far away so they are small stickers instead.

revelation 10y ago
They are chop shops presumably because they chop the bike up into its constituent parts, of which only really the frame will have any sort of marking or serial number.
- franciscop 10y ago
  Yes but in this way, until it is all chop up it's easy to differentiate a stolen bike from a non-stolen bike. If the police just sees a bunch of parts then it's the same as now, but if they see someone chopping a bike they could consult the registration and inmediately check if the bike is stolen or not. I think one of the most important parts for organized stolen bikes is the frame while other parts are more for small-time things (correct me if I'm wrong).
mschuetz 10y ago
We have/had something similar in my city. It does nothing to prevent bike theft or getting your stolen bike back.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- 8draco8 10y ago
  I'm just assuming here but from what you are saying, your city is an exception, and rest of the country doesn't have that law so I can come to your city from some country side with my bike and lack of registration number on my bike wouldn't be surprise to any one. It would work only if it would be mandatory that every bike in the country have to have registered owner (like cars and motorbikes) so you would never expect buying a bike without registration papers and police could easily check if bike is registered for you or not.

skookumchuck 10y ago

You could put any longish number on it, then report that number to the police. Electric engraving tools aren't expensive, around $20. Legislation could mandate a website that handed out numbers to people who registered and provided a way to report those numbers as stolen. Registrants could provide a pic of their bike with the numbers. This won't eliminate the problem, but it will provide an easy and free method that people could identify their bikes, report them as stolen, and the police can identify which bikes are stolen and return them.

cr1895 10y ago
I learned the other day that something similar was happening in the US in the 80s with peoples' social security numbers. Someone was asking why a turntable from the 80s had a big social security number etched into the back; apparently, the initiative was to use it as an identifier in case the item was stolen. Now of course it's rather ludicrous to use your SSN in that way but in principle it seems like a good idea to prove ownership.
- skookumchuck 10y ago
  Engraving the SSN on things was commonplace before the internet and identity theft became a big thing. Drivers License numbers were used, too.

ciaranm 10y ago

There's a UK-based service supported by the police that helps with this sort of thing: https://www.bikeregister.com/ https://www.bikeregister.com/ I haven't had my bike stolen, but friends who have say this helped.

rodionos 10y ago

While the proposed legislation appears to make sense, the lack of bike crime statistics makes it hard to judge if squeezing the distribution part of the crime chain makes sense. The basics: how many 'chop shops' are there? How many bikes do they sell? If the numbers are small, it's just another burden on local police which may have other priorities on their plate, e.g. innercity crime/drugs. One of the countries that tracks bike theft as a separate category is Sweden[0]. > In 2015, 66,500 bicycle thefts were processed¹. > Investigation was commenced for 6.5 per cent ... while the majority were dismissed with no investigation. [0] https://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/bicycle-theft.html https://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statist... There are 10 mln people living in Sweden, San Francisco has 1 mln. So there must be like 6K bike thefts annually. How many will be prevented by closing a few chop shops?