5 ms·

Custom engineering design and construction is very expensive because they cannot amortize the costs over many units. If it was like tomatoes, that is being prod

Custom engineering design and construction is very expensive because they cannot amortize the costs over many units. If it was like tomatoes, that is being produced by the thousands then you would be able to get a very specific price. But one-off are very hard to cost, especially in the absence of detailed design and specification. You might be better off looking at what the established farm machinery companies are doing, for example John Deere has an autonomous tractor. There are also many companies who retrofit GPS and other automation to existing farm machinery. I found thousands of different automated farm machines with a quick Google search, so I don't know where you have been looking. Another option is to contact the engineering faculty of a nearby university, they might be interested in solving a real world problem if you can produce a preliminary requirements specification.

jelliclesfarm 10y ago
I hear what you are saying. But in my opinion..it's exactly the huge farm machines that has created unsustainable conditions in agriculture. I think there is a tipping point. When population was sparse, we were able to get away with pulling a plough with buffaloes. As population exploded, we innovated by creating heavy machinery but sacrificed soil integrity and had to rely on pesticides and fertilizers etc. because of the volume, market value was also affected. We sacrificed soil. At this point, population is out of control and cultivable land is shrinking. Now we have to preserve land and change the way we farm because we can't use earth moving machines and keep ripping earth to feed people who are also taking up land for housing and land for industry. For regenerative agriculture, land has to be preserved and we have to go back to human scale farming but using smart techniques. I figured that solution is in places who are facing the problem of shrinking ag land. I think we take the swathes of land from sea to shining sea for granted. Even assuming that soil has not become useless, there aren't enough people farming and with population increasing, it's going to go away. Think China..they are buying land in Africa to grow food for their people because their aquifers are drying up. We are already only growing commodities like corn, soy..and feeding them to hogs and chicken. Which is actually more expensive in terms of water. I have started looking at countries that are ahead of the curve..where we will be in 100 years. Small countries, aging and shrinking population..yet less land. There are a few nice robotic base chassis units on alibaba. Then I am going to start cold calling universities in places like Philippines, Vietnam, India etc because if anyone needs small/autonomous, it's going to be rice growing farmers. Maybe bring it back here for collaboration with univ here for the automation part. Ag universities in the states are married to what works. Anything that hasn't been tried and tested is not taught and is frowned upon. I get it. I guess that's how academia works. I have spoken to some retired professors and current head of depts in ag colleges in the states and everyone says it can be done..but it's not worth it. One of them laughed at me. Of course..why try something new when you can suckle at the teat of almost instant credit and subsidies. A farmer I know and work with has been diagnosed with valley fever. It's prevalent in Central Valley. It's a fungal infection where spores lodge in lungs during certain seasons...it comes from the soil and farmers and their children are the sickest and are often covered by barest minimum insurance if any..that's a cost of farming too. But no one sees it. Not even farmers. I am not a generational farmer and it amazes me that they keep going at it. And fewer kids are picking up the profession of farming. New generation grew up caressing smart phone screens to swipe..not driving heavy farm machinery or knowing how to fix its mechanical innards. No way they will do what their fathers and grandfathers did.. I remember the rotary phone. And how the wires snake up from phone to wall. Smart phones are mobile and fit palm of the hand. John Deeres and heavy farm equipment are the rotary phones of farming. If we keep basing design on them, we will never figure the next best design. I do like the idea of universities. Thanks. I will mix it up a bit and try outside first. I don't believe it will happen in the states.
- RUG3Y 10y ago
  I think this was a great post, and it touches on a lot of things that I think about daily. I live in a rural area, with farms all around. Every day a new field goes up for sale, and a new subdivision of mcmansions is built where crops were once harvested. It's insane to me...where does it end? How much farmland can we give up? As to unsustainable, automated mega-farming practices, I'm very much against this style of agriculture, but it's all about money. There's huge money in doing it that way, regardless of the cost in terms of soil destruction and health costs from producing food that is not nutritious (corn products are in every processed food these days - a lot of this stuff is like industrial waste). I don't have many answers, the system is too large and complex for me to understand without devoting my life the the effort. I do worry about it every day though.
  - jelliclesfarm 10y ago
    But money is an artificial construct. We literally print money, yes? But food is real. Land is limited. You can't print land and once the top soil is gone, it's gone. Once it's under asphalt, it's gone. Once groundwater is polluted, it's gone. It's like cutting off a branch you are sitting on..we construct on land we grow food to accommodate expanding families but what will those families and their families eat if there is no land to grow food. It beggars belief. no words.
    - RUG3Y 10y ago
      I agree with you. I can't comprehend that the incentive to behave this way is great enough compared to the destruction it causes. It's a guarantee that I'm missing a piece of the equation.
- CyberFonic 10y ago
  I really enjoyed reading your well presented review of the present situation. In a philosophical sense, you seem to share many observations in common with Dimitry Orlov and Howard Kunstler. The biggest stumbling block to your vision is that very few people want to work in agriculture. It is too hard, dirty, unglamorous, uncool. The highly educated youth want to work in flash offices on the latest smartphone app. Then you have the big agribusiness who own the political system and exploit it to their own ends. As you have noted the situation is dire in first-world countries. These countries have moved from an agrarian economy to to capitalistic one. Ecology be damned if it gets in the way of greater profits. In countries such as Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, etc - man power is not an issue. A sufficiently large proportion of the population still work on the land. Due to their low capital resources even cheap robotics are infeasible. China is a special case. Whilst they have a massive population, a very large proportion of their country is of low agricultural potential. But they, like Japan in the 1980s, are gravitating to the cities - it is a prestige thing for many. When they are looking to Africa, it isn't just the land they are eyeing, they are looking at the large potential low cost workforce already there. Basically re-inventing the colonial ambitions of the British, Dutch and Germans in the previous century.

jelliclesfarm 10y ago

I hear what you are saying. But in my opinion..it's exactly the huge farm machines that has created unsustainable conditions in agriculture. I think there is a tipping point. When population was sparse, we were able to get away with pulling a plough with buffaloes. As population exploded, we innovated by creating heavy machinery but sacrificed soil integrity and had to rely on pesticides and fertilizers etc. because of the volume, market value was also affected. We sacrificed soil. At this point, population is out of control and cultivable land is shrinking. Now we have to preserve land and change the way we farm because we can't use earth moving machines and keep ripping earth to feed people who are also taking up land for housing and land for industry. For regenerative agriculture, land has to be preserved and we have to go back to human scale farming but using smart techniques. I figured that solution is in places who are facing the problem of shrinking ag land. I think we take the swathes of land from sea to shining sea for granted. Even assuming that soil has not become useless, there aren't enough people farming and with population increasing, it's going to go away. Think China..they are buying land in Africa to grow food for their people because their aquifers are drying up. We are already only growing commodities like corn, soy..and feeding them to hogs and chicken. Which is actually more expensive in terms of water. I have started looking at countries that are ahead of the curve..where we will be in 100 years. Small countries, aging and shrinking population..yet less land. There are a few nice robotic base chassis units on alibaba. Then I am going to start cold calling universities in places like Philippines, Vietnam, India etc because if anyone needs small/autonomous, it's going to be rice growing farmers. Maybe bring it back here for collaboration with univ here for the automation part. Ag universities in the states are married to what works. Anything that hasn't been tried and tested is not taught and is frowned upon. I get it. I guess that's how academia works. I have spoken to some retired professors and current head of depts in ag colleges in the states and everyone says it can be done..but it's not worth it. One of them laughed at me. Of course..why try something new when you can suckle at the teat of almost instant credit and subsidies. A farmer I know and work with has been diagnosed with valley fever. It's prevalent in Central Valley. It's a fungal infection where spores lodge in lungs during certain seasons...it comes from the soil and farmers and their children are the sickest and are often covered by barest minimum insurance if any..that's a cost of farming too. But no one sees it. Not even farmers. I am not a generational farmer and it amazes me that they keep going at it. And fewer kids are picking up the profession of farming. New generation grew up caressing smart phone screens to swipe..not driving heavy farm machinery or knowing how to fix its mechanical innards. No way they will do what their fathers and grandfathers did.. I remember the rotary phone. And how the wires snake up from phone to wall. Smart phones are mobile and fit palm of the hand. John Deeres and heavy farm equipment are the rotary phones of farming. If we keep basing design on them, we will never figure the next best design. I do like the idea of universities. Thanks. I will mix it up a bit and try outside first. I don't believe it will happen in the states.

RUG3Y 10y ago
I think this was a great post, and it touches on a lot of things that I think about daily. I live in a rural area, with farms all around. Every day a new field goes up for sale, and a new subdivision of mcmansions is built where crops were once harvested. It's insane to me...where does it end? How much farmland can we give up? As to unsustainable, automated mega-farming practices, I'm very much against this style of agriculture, but it's all about money. There's huge money in doing it that way, regardless of the cost in terms of soil destruction and health costs from producing food that is not nutritious (corn products are in every processed food these days - a lot of this stuff is like industrial waste). I don't have many answers, the system is too large and complex for me to understand without devoting my life the the effort. I do worry about it every day though.
- jelliclesfarm 10y ago
  But money is an artificial construct. We literally print money, yes? But food is real. Land is limited. You can't print land and once the top soil is gone, it's gone. Once it's under asphalt, it's gone. Once groundwater is polluted, it's gone. It's like cutting off a branch you are sitting on..we construct on land we grow food to accommodate expanding families but what will those families and their families eat if there is no land to grow food. It beggars belief. no words.
  - RUG3Y 10y ago
    I agree with you. I can't comprehend that the incentive to behave this way is great enough compared to the destruction it causes. It's a guarantee that I'm missing a piece of the equation.
CyberFonic 10y ago
I really enjoyed reading your well presented review of the present situation. In a philosophical sense, you seem to share many observations in common with Dimitry Orlov and Howard Kunstler. The biggest stumbling block to your vision is that very few people want to work in agriculture. It is too hard, dirty, unglamorous, uncool. The highly educated youth want to work in flash offices on the latest smartphone app. Then you have the big agribusiness who own the political system and exploit it to their own ends. As you have noted the situation is dire in first-world countries. These countries have moved from an agrarian economy to to capitalistic one. Ecology be damned if it gets in the way of greater profits. In countries such as Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, etc - man power is not an issue. A sufficiently large proportion of the population still work on the land. Due to their low capital resources even cheap robotics are infeasible. China is a special case. Whilst they have a massive population, a very large proportion of their country is of low agricultural potential. But they, like Japan in the 1980s, are gravitating to the cities - it is a prestige thing for many. When they are looking to Africa, it isn't just the land they are eyeing, they are looking at the large potential low cost workforce already there. Basically re-inventing the colonial ambitions of the British, Dutch and Germans in the previous century.