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I'm very seriously thinking about relocating there with my family (we're in France). We're actually going there next week to visit the country and do a reality

I'm very seriously thinking about relocating there with my family (we're in France). We're actually going there next week to visit the country and do a reality check about our expectations. For those who made the move - how was your experience ? IT scene ? Machine Learning related stuff anyone ?

joshontheweb 10y ago
I lived there for a year. My wife is a kiwi so we visit from time to time. Lovely people, scenery, and weather. You need to be near a major hub. Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch. Outside of that is mostly very rural and has little opportunity. Things are expensive. Rent is very expensive in the hubs. Almost to the point of crisis in Auckland. I worked remotely for a company in the US while I was there so I didn't get too good a sense for the tech scene but it exists. I attended a jsconf while there and about 100 attended. From what I heard, the wages aren't as high. The biggest company in NZ is a dairy company. I wouldn't recommend starting a business there. The labor laws are out of control. I was in Christchurch. Nice place but it is still recovering from the big earthquake a few years ago. There are still dozens of small tremors happening every day. I started to lose faith in the ground while living there which is a weird feeling. Utilities are so expensive that most people use woodburners to heat their homes. It was a great experience and we'll be going back some time. If you do it, try and get a remote job for an outside company and prepare to tighten your belt straps a bit. If you are into hiking and camping in your free time, there may be no better place on earth. The scenery is diverse and truly stunning.
- lostlogin 10y ago
  > The labor laws are out of control There are two sides to this. The advert is for a job, and as an employee you're relatively protected against bad employers. Not protected enough in my view, but for those from other political environments it might seem rather alien. Given that most are employees and not employers it's a perspective worth considering.
  - joshontheweb 10y ago
    I was speaking from the perspective of a bootstrapped startup founder. As I understood it, it can be quite hard to legally fire someone. This could easily be the end of an early stage company. Take my advice on this with a grain of salt as this was just what I heard from talking to people. I never hired anyone while I was there.
- antod 10y ago
  >The labor laws are out of control. Depends who you're talking to and their perspective. To an American, it seems like France. To someone from France (ie who you were replying to), it would seem like America.
  - joshontheweb 10y ago
    Good point
- tmnvix 10y ago
  > I wouldn't recommend starting a business there. Ease of Doing Business Index: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IC.BUS.EASE.XQ?view=map&year_high_desc=false http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IC.BUS.EASE.XQ?view=map&... NZ is top of the list.
  - joshontheweb 10y ago
    Go for it!
    - tmnvix 10y ago
      Actually, I am. Currently in Australia, moving back to NZ (where I am from) in a month or so and will take my business with me.
      - joshontheweb 10y ago
        Specifically what I understood about NZ labor law is that you can't easily fire someone that isn't working out for whatever reason. You have to have a history of documentation and written warnings to validate the cause. While this can be nice for an employee. An early stage company can easily get sunk by this. Again, this is just what I understood from talking to others but it was enough to make me nervous about doing any hiring there. It certainly can and does work for people regardless. Good luck with your venture.
        tmnvix 10y ago
        Thanks. As far as letting go of employees that aren't working out, NZ industrial relations legislation does include provision for a trial period that can be included in an employment contract. This trial period can be up to 90 days. https://employment.govt.nz/starting-employment/trial-and-probationary-periods/trial-periods/ https://employment.govt.nz/starting-employment/trial-and-pro...
        mdekkers 10y ago
        You have to have a history of documentation and written warnings to validate the cause. The UK is the same. Actually, most civilized countries have similar laws. You can't sack people at will (something I personally believe to be a terrible practice) and you have to have a good reason to do so. Never had a problem firing people that had to be fired. Just keep records, do things by the book. It isn't as onerous as it sounds. Send some emails, send some letters, most of the times nothing will be a surprise for anybody anyway.
kovrik 10y ago
My wife and I moved to NZ (from Russia) 2+ years ago. I work in IT (Software Developer). We live in Auckland. My impressions are: PROS: - very beautiful country. Really, nature here is amazing! - people are very friendly - everything is quite simple and small, people know each other. It is more like a village, not a City - climate is fine (in Auckland). Humidity is high - that is why it feels hot in summer and cold in winter - no earthquakes (Auckland) - very safe country - coffee and beer and foods are amazing! - it is clean - lack of stress, slow pace of life CONS: - NZ is unreasonably expensive country to live in - you can't really make money here. All salaries are pretty much the same. You'll get enough for living, but not much more. - job market is small and weird (hence, limited career opportunities) - rent is very high. You'll spend 40-60% of your salary on a rent. - house prices are unreasonably high. It will be very difficult to buy a good house/apartment here - quality of houses/apartments is very bad. They are tiny, old, ugly. Well, there are some nice houses, but they are far from CBD - it is far far away from the rest of the world, hence it is expensive to travel from NZ to other countries - it is boring here. Nothing is going on. About 4-5 good concerts/exhibitions/shows per year and that's it. The only ways to entertain yourself are: food (pubs, cafes, restaurants etc. But choice is very limited) and nature (hiking, camping, surfing, caving etc.) - almost all cafes and shops close at 4-6pm. Yes, not many places to go after work. - if you (or your wife) like shopping, then you'll be disappointed. Again, choice is very limited, quality is quite low, prices are unreasonably high. - IT: it is just my opinion, but I would say that average IT specialist in NZ doesn't know much. I see a lot of IT people here who, for example, don't know how to use Git. Who never heard about Rust. Who never heard about LISP. Who have 8 years of Java experience, but don't know basic Java stuff. And so on. Honestly, this is quite disappointing - companies don't hire you for your skills. They don't usually ask any technical question during interviews. Most probably they will just check if you are kind, polite, if you smile, if you can sell yourself - employers here often require mythical 'New Zealand Experience'. Which means that if you've never worked in NZ, then it will be difficult for you to find your first job here (because you don't have NZ experience yet) - people don't work hard here. They come to work slowly, relax, read news, drink coffee, work a little bit, then have lunch, then work a little bit again. When it's 5pm - they just go home. - public transport is bad Overall, NZ is a very very nice country, but it has some REALLY annoying and weird stuff. If you _don't_ really want to make a Career and Money, just want to relax, want to have no stress and anxiety, if you enjoy nature, then it would be great for you. If you are more a 'city guy', who wants things to happen all the time around, who wants to make a career, have opportunities, who wants to live in a big modern city, then honestly, I would recommend Australia (Melbourne/Sydney) over New Zealand. My wife and I are planning to move to Australia in the future.

joshontheweb 10y ago

I lived there for a year. My wife is a kiwi so we visit from time to time. Lovely people, scenery, and weather. You need to be near a major hub. Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch. Outside of that is mostly very rural and has little opportunity. Things are expensive. Rent is very expensive in the hubs. Almost to the point of crisis in Auckland. I worked remotely for a company in the US while I was there so I didn't get too good a sense for the tech scene but it exists. I attended a jsconf while there and about 100 attended. From what I heard, the wages aren't as high. The biggest company in NZ is a dairy company. I wouldn't recommend starting a business there. The labor laws are out of control. I was in Christchurch. Nice place but it is still recovering from the big earthquake a few years ago. There are still dozens of small tremors happening every day. I started to lose faith in the ground while living there which is a weird feeling. Utilities are so expensive that most people use woodburners to heat their homes. It was a great experience and we'll be going back some time. If you do it, try and get a remote job for an outside company and prepare to tighten your belt straps a bit. If you are into hiking and camping in your free time, there may be no better place on earth. The scenery is diverse and truly stunning.

lostlogin 10y ago
> The labor laws are out of control There are two sides to this. The advert is for a job, and as an employee you're relatively protected against bad employers. Not protected enough in my view, but for those from other political environments it might seem rather alien. Given that most are employees and not employers it's a perspective worth considering.
- joshontheweb 10y ago
  I was speaking from the perspective of a bootstrapped startup founder. As I understood it, it can be quite hard to legally fire someone. This could easily be the end of an early stage company. Take my advice on this with a grain of salt as this was just what I heard from talking to people. I never hired anyone while I was there.
antod 10y ago
>The labor laws are out of control. Depends who you're talking to and their perspective. To an American, it seems like France. To someone from France (ie who you were replying to), it would seem like America.
- joshontheweb 10y ago
  Good point
tmnvix 10y ago
> I wouldn't recommend starting a business there. Ease of Doing Business Index: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IC.BUS.EASE.XQ?view=map&year_high_desc=false http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IC.BUS.EASE.XQ?view=map&... NZ is top of the list.
- joshontheweb 10y ago
  Go for it!
  - tmnvix 10y ago
    Actually, I am. Currently in Australia, moving back to NZ (where I am from) in a month or so and will take my business with me.
    - joshontheweb 10y ago
      Specifically what I understood about NZ labor law is that you can't easily fire someone that isn't working out for whatever reason. You have to have a history of documentation and written warnings to validate the cause. While this can be nice for an employee. An early stage company can easily get sunk by this. Again, this is just what I understood from talking to others but it was enough to make me nervous about doing any hiring there. It certainly can and does work for people regardless. Good luck with your venture.
      - tmnvix 10y ago
        Thanks. As far as letting go of employees that aren't working out, NZ industrial relations legislation does include provision for a trial period that can be included in an employment contract. This trial period can be up to 90 days. https://employment.govt.nz/starting-employment/trial-and-probationary-periods/trial-periods/ https://employment.govt.nz/starting-employment/trial-and-pro...
      - mdekkers 10y ago
        You have to have a history of documentation and written warnings to validate the cause. The UK is the same. Actually, most civilized countries have similar laws. You can't sack people at will (something I personally believe to be a terrible practice) and you have to have a good reason to do so. Never had a problem firing people that had to be fired. Just keep records, do things by the book. It isn't as onerous as it sounds. Send some emails, send some letters, most of the times nothing will be a surprise for anybody anyway.

kovrik 10y ago

My wife and I moved to NZ (from Russia) 2+ years ago. I work in IT (Software Developer). We live in Auckland. My impressions are: PROS: - very beautiful country. Really, nature here is amazing! - people are very friendly - everything is quite simple and small, people know each other. It is more like a village, not a City - climate is fine (in Auckland). Humidity is high - that is why it feels hot in summer and cold in winter - no earthquakes (Auckland) - very safe country - coffee and beer and foods are amazing! - it is clean - lack of stress, slow pace of life CONS: - NZ is unreasonably expensive country to live in - you can't really make money here. All salaries are pretty much the same. You'll get enough for living, but not much more. - job market is small and weird (hence, limited career opportunities) - rent is very high. You'll spend 40-60% of your salary on a rent. - house prices are unreasonably high. It will be very difficult to buy a good house/apartment here - quality of houses/apartments is very bad. They are tiny, old, ugly. Well, there are some nice houses, but they are far from CBD - it is far far away from the rest of the world, hence it is expensive to travel from NZ to other countries - it is boring here. Nothing is going on. About 4-5 good concerts/exhibitions/shows per year and that's it. The only ways to entertain yourself are: food (pubs, cafes, restaurants etc. But choice is very limited) and nature (hiking, camping, surfing, caving etc.) - almost all cafes and shops close at 4-6pm. Yes, not many places to go after work. - if you (or your wife) like shopping, then you'll be disappointed. Again, choice is very limited, quality is quite low, prices are unreasonably high. - IT: it is just my opinion, but I would say that average IT specialist in NZ doesn't know much. I see a lot of IT people here who, for example, don't know how to use Git. Who never heard about Rust. Who never heard about LISP. Who have 8 years of Java experience, but don't know basic Java stuff. And so on. Honestly, this is quite disappointing - companies don't hire you for your skills. They don't usually ask any technical question during interviews. Most probably they will just check if you are kind, polite, if you smile, if you can sell yourself - employers here often require mythical 'New Zealand Experience'. Which means that if you've never worked in NZ, then it will be difficult for you to find your first job here (because you don't have NZ experience yet) - people don't work hard here. They come to work slowly, relax, read news, drink coffee, work a little bit, then have lunch, then work a little bit again. When it's 5pm - they just go home. - public transport is bad Overall, NZ is a very very nice country, but it has some REALLY annoying and weird stuff. If you _don't_ really want to make a Career and Money, just want to relax, want to have no stress and anxiety, if you enjoy nature, then it would be great for you. If you are more a 'city guy', who wants things to happen all the time around, who wants to make a career, have opportunities, who wants to live in a big modern city, then honestly, I would recommend Australia (Melbourne/Sydney) over New Zealand. My wife and I are planning to move to Australia in the future.