16 ms·

What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

196 points by kawera 10y ago

randycupertino 10y ago
I don't think it's off base to say that within out lifetime the oceans will be completely destroyed. So many mass-die offs of ocean life lately.
- astrodust 10y ago
  They die, we die. It's as simple as that.
  - mirimir 10y ago
    Yeah, that's a pretty good bet :(
- mirimir 10y ago
  They'll be very different, certainly. But not "completely destroyed". There may well be nothing very good to eat there, however. And less oxygen.
- refurb 10y ago
  within out lifetime the oceans will be completely destroyed A bit of an exaggeration, no? There have been several mass extinction events in the past and yet the world exists today.
  - im3w1l 10y ago
    I'm sure the world will recover just fine in a few hundred million years.
  - astrodust 10y ago
    It didn't work out very well for the dinosaurs, did it?
nickbauman 10y ago
Oceans? We can't even keep our own drinking water safe.
- calibraxis 10y ago
  I agree. The only thing I'd change is can't -> won't. We won't do it, we refuse to.
rbosinger 10y ago
If we don't manage to turn this stuff around then all this tech progress we read about all day won't mean very much. I'm talking about things like VR and new programming languages... Obviously tech that saved the oceans would be a different story...
anotherturn 10y ago
It's not really enough to read and upvote, but I'm at a loss as to what I can personally can do about this. So in the spirit of the askhn "how would you turn around Twitter" - let's apply the same thinking to this: "how would you fix the oceans "? There must be some practical steps that one or many of the hn audience can execute?
- greglindahl 10y ago
  Become a vegetarian. Not only will you not contribute to the fish market, but you'll also reduce the amount of fertilizer flowing into the ocean.
  - anotherturn 10y ago
    To make a dent I suspect becoming a vegetarian isn't enough - you'd have to become an effective-evangelical vegetarian. So, given that fear and shock tactics are failing - how do I convince the world (or a sizeable portion of it) to become vegetarian? I heard a podcast recently about a guy working to produce real meat from plant matter. This would probably be an effective solution. By spending time otherwise used for side projects perhaps I could help bring the cost of production down to below that of animal-meat? Know of anything I can work on to help?
    - greglindahl 10y ago
      [ I have no idea why people are downvoting me, so I'll just remove this comment. ]
      - anotherturn 10y ago
        I think you missed the point of the comment... "fear and shock tactics" have been applied to me wrt climate change, vegetarianism, etc. But all they seem to have done is desensitize me. Hence my saying that they do not work. I'm exploring whether there are things that I (and the rest of the HN audience) can do to make a dent. Right now my measure of effectiveness and productivity is almost exclusively related to dev work. It'd be worthwhile to find a way to expand this to include more nebulous objectives - and having some practical things to work on seems a step in the right direction?
cpprototypes 10y ago
I wish some billionaire would start a chain of carbon neutral gas stations. I wouldn't mind paying more for gas if I knew it was carbon neutral. There are several ways the gas could be carbon neutral, either through production (solar/wind into fuel creation) or offsets (plant trees or carbon sequestration). Instead of slowly trying to change our transportation infrastructure to EV, which will take decades, this could have immediate impact now.
- zachcb 10y ago
  That gas station would be empty 95% of the time because it wouldn't succeed. Most people don't want to spend any extra money on things that they won't directly benefit from.
  - cpprototypes 10y ago
    I think organics food shows this isn't true. These gas stations would first target the affluent liberal markets. The marketing could be, don't feel bad about buying that luxury BMW gas guzzler, come to Neutral gas station. The station should feel high end, like the Apple store of gas stations. This is how organic food started with Whole Foods. And the same strategy could work here.
    - SwellJoe 10y ago
      Organic food is successful because a significant number of people believe it is healthier to eat than non-organic foods. The environmental impact is mostly not the reason. (Whether it is true that organic foods are healthier may be debatable, though for some foods the evidence is pretty good that it is.) It won't work to use that angle for gas. Pure environmental plays are harder to find. There are people who pay more for renewable generated electricity, so that's a good parallel. I don't know what percentage, however, or if it'd be enough to support a chain of expensive gas stations.
      - cpprototypes 10y ago
        This was true years ago, but I think times are different now. Theres a feeling of near panic among many as the effects of climate change become more obvious and the new Trump environmental policies. I think theres strong desire to do something and this could tap into that. Also by being high end, theres opportunity to be very different. These stations shouldn't even look like traditional stations. They could provide services that appeal to affluent markets and provide good profit margin. This will be necessary at first because raising gas price alone won't be enough to cover costs.
danvdragos 10y ago
Reading this struck me: What is the difference between primordial volcanoes and human pollution? During the dinosaur age it was a lot hotter [0] and there were really extraordinary organisms. Further reading seems to go down a rabbit hole [1],etc. [0]http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2014/07/11/what-geology-has-to-say-about-global-warming/ http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2014/07/11/what-geology-has-to-... [1]https://www.theguardian.com/environment/blog/2010/apr/21/iceland-volcano-climate-sceptics https://www.theguardian.com/environment/blog/2010/apr/21/ice...
- snowwrestler 10y ago
  The difference is that during primordial times, we did not have all our infrastructure built out across the globe. Although global warming is often talked about in "bad for the Earth" terms, really, the Earth will be just fine. It's been through worse. Global warming is scary because it's bad for human societies. We built our cities and farms and national boundaries in certain places based on the climate we have had. Significant shifts in sea level, precipitation, temps, etc. will cause massive costs and unrest.
  - gd1 10y ago
    Why don't they say that then? I rate the claim that the 'planet is in danger' or 'life on earth is threatened' false. Four pinocchios.
  - wu-ikkyu 10y ago
    >Although global warming is often talked about in "bad for the Earth" terms, really, the Earth will be just fine In the wise words of George Carlin: >The planet is fine. The people are fucked!
  - _andromeda_ 10y ago
    >Global warming is scary because it's bad for human societies. We built our cities and farms and national boundaries in certain places based on the climate we have had. Significant shifts in sea level, precipitation, temps, etc. will cause massive costs and unrest. Such a fresh perspective on this issue. Warrants thinking about but still I maintain, most humans don't have the discipline to worry about things that far in the future if the cost means they spend more on energy. Cheaper is the only way.
pelasaco 10y ago
"A member of the world’s longest-living vertebrate species, she was born a few centuries before the end of the Holocene" Sorry, I'm not native English speaker, but what was meant with "she"? a) One shark, identified as female, which lived 400 years (!!) b) Millennial way to try to be gender agnostic?

196 points by kawera 10y ago

I don't think it's off base to say that within out lifetime the oceans will be completely destroyed. So many mass-die offs of ocean life lately.

astrodust 10y ago
They die, we die. It's as simple as that.
- mirimir 10y ago
  Yeah, that's a pretty good bet :(
mirimir 10y ago
They'll be very different, certainly. But not "completely destroyed". There may well be nothing very good to eat there, however. And less oxygen.
refurb 10y ago
within out lifetime the oceans will be completely destroyed A bit of an exaggeration, no? There have been several mass extinction events in the past and yet the world exists today.
- im3w1l 10y ago
  I'm sure the world will recover just fine in a few hundred million years.
- astrodust 10y ago
  It didn't work out very well for the dinosaurs, did it?

nickbauman 10y ago

Oceans? We can't even keep our own drinking water safe.

calibraxis 10y ago
I agree. The only thing I'd change is can't -> won't. We won't do it, we refuse to.

rbosinger 10y ago

If we don't manage to turn this stuff around then all this tech progress we read about all day won't mean very much. I'm talking about things like VR and new programming languages... Obviously tech that saved the oceans would be a different story...

anotherturn 10y ago

It's not really enough to read and upvote, but I'm at a loss as to what I can personally can do about this. So in the spirit of the askhn "how would you turn around Twitter" - let's apply the same thinking to this: "how would you fix the oceans "? There must be some practical steps that one or many of the hn audience can execute?

greglindahl 10y ago
Become a vegetarian. Not only will you not contribute to the fish market, but you'll also reduce the amount of fertilizer flowing into the ocean.
- anotherturn 10y ago
  To make a dent I suspect becoming a vegetarian isn't enough - you'd have to become an effective-evangelical vegetarian. So, given that fear and shock tactics are failing - how do I convince the world (or a sizeable portion of it) to become vegetarian? I heard a podcast recently about a guy working to produce real meat from plant matter. This would probably be an effective solution. By spending time otherwise used for side projects perhaps I could help bring the cost of production down to below that of animal-meat? Know of anything I can work on to help?
  - greglindahl 10y ago
    [ I have no idea why people are downvoting me, so I'll just remove this comment. ]
    - anotherturn 10y ago
      I think you missed the point of the comment... "fear and shock tactics" have been applied to me wrt climate change, vegetarianism, etc. But all they seem to have done is desensitize me. Hence my saying that they do not work. I'm exploring whether there are things that I (and the rest of the HN audience) can do to make a dent. Right now my measure of effectiveness and productivity is almost exclusively related to dev work. It'd be worthwhile to find a way to expand this to include more nebulous objectives - and having some practical things to work on seems a step in the right direction?

cpprototypes 10y ago

I wish some billionaire would start a chain of carbon neutral gas stations. I wouldn't mind paying more for gas if I knew it was carbon neutral. There are several ways the gas could be carbon neutral, either through production (solar/wind into fuel creation) or offsets (plant trees or carbon sequestration). Instead of slowly trying to change our transportation infrastructure to EV, which will take decades, this could have immediate impact now.

zachcb 10y ago
That gas station would be empty 95% of the time because it wouldn't succeed. Most people don't want to spend any extra money on things that they won't directly benefit from.
- cpprototypes 10y ago
  I think organics food shows this isn't true. These gas stations would first target the affluent liberal markets. The marketing could be, don't feel bad about buying that luxury BMW gas guzzler, come to Neutral gas station. The station should feel high end, like the Apple store of gas stations. This is how organic food started with Whole Foods. And the same strategy could work here.
  - SwellJoe 10y ago
    Organic food is successful because a significant number of people believe it is healthier to eat than non-organic foods. The environmental impact is mostly not the reason. (Whether it is true that organic foods are healthier may be debatable, though for some foods the evidence is pretty good that it is.) It won't work to use that angle for gas. Pure environmental plays are harder to find. There are people who pay more for renewable generated electricity, so that's a good parallel. I don't know what percentage, however, or if it'd be enough to support a chain of expensive gas stations.
    - cpprototypes 10y ago
      This was true years ago, but I think times are different now. Theres a feeling of near panic among many as the effects of climate change become more obvious and the new Trump environmental policies. I think theres strong desire to do something and this could tap into that. Also by being high end, theres opportunity to be very different. These stations shouldn't even look like traditional stations. They could provide services that appeal to affluent markets and provide good profit margin. This will be necessary at first because raising gas price alone won't be enough to cover costs.

danvdragos 10y ago

Reading this struck me: What is the difference between primordial volcanoes and human pollution? During the dinosaur age it was a lot hotter [0] and there were really extraordinary organisms. Further reading seems to go down a rabbit hole [1],etc. [0]http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2014/07/11/what-geology-has-to-say-about-global-warming/ http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2014/07/11/what-geology-has-to-... [1]https://www.theguardian.com/environment/blog/2010/apr/21/iceland-volcano-climate-sceptics https://www.theguardian.com/environment/blog/2010/apr/21/ice...

snowwrestler 10y ago
The difference is that during primordial times, we did not have all our infrastructure built out across the globe. Although global warming is often talked about in "bad for the Earth" terms, really, the Earth will be just fine. It's been through worse. Global warming is scary because it's bad for human societies. We built our cities and farms and national boundaries in certain places based on the climate we have had. Significant shifts in sea level, precipitation, temps, etc. will cause massive costs and unrest.
- gd1 10y ago
  Why don't they say that then? I rate the claim that the 'planet is in danger' or 'life on earth is threatened' false. Four pinocchios.
- wu-ikkyu 10y ago
  >Although global warming is often talked about in "bad for the Earth" terms, really, the Earth will be just fine In the wise words of George Carlin: >The planet is fine. The people are fucked!
- _andromeda_ 10y ago
  >Global warming is scary because it's bad for human societies. We built our cities and farms and national boundaries in certain places based on the climate we have had. Significant shifts in sea level, precipitation, temps, etc. will cause massive costs and unrest. Such a fresh perspective on this issue. Warrants thinking about but still I maintain, most humans don't have the discipline to worry about things that far in the future if the cost means they spend more on energy. Cheaper is the only way.

pelasaco 10y ago

"A member of the world’s longest-living vertebrate species, she was born a few centuries before the end of the Holocene" Sorry, I'm not native English speaker, but what was meant with "she"? a) One shark, identified as female, which lived 400 years (!!) b) Millennial way to try to be gender agnostic?