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"The cold war branding of anything communism/socialism as evil is being seen through as rhetoric" I can hardly believe that anyone who was alive during the 'co

"The cold war branding of anything communism/socialism as evil is being seen through as rhetoric" I can hardly believe that anyone who was alive during the 'cold war' would ever say that. I grew up in an immigrant community in Canada, and most of my friends fled those disastrous, oppressive and totalitarian 'communist paradises' all over E. Europe, China, Vietnam, Cuba - and also - Sweden, by the way. Nordic countries were extremely socialist during the 1950's to mid 1980's. If you were to try to say this in front of my friend's parents, they'd 'trigger', and kick you right out of the house in anger. My uncle escaped Communist Hungary as a boy, literally, at night, running through the forest with soldiers chasing he and his mother. I also remember the very real threat of a nuclear holocaust, in the 1970's to late 1980's it was a very, very real and tangible things. You can try to 'debate', that's all fine, but communist utopian (read: dystopian) ideals seemed pushed by young naive people in every generation. It's almost as though they don't grasp the lessons of history. There'll always be need for 'constant vigilance' against oppression by capital, fleeced consumers etc. - but socialism and especially communism are unmitigated disasters. Communists are definitely 'dirty'. They represent, in reality - the world's greatest movement of mass murder and oppression. The paradox of the constant attraction to communism lies in their apparent goodwill: hey, who wouldn't want 'equality' and 'food for everyone' , yada, yada? Sounds great! Reality is a little harder and sometimes takes time to grasp. "privatise luxury, socialise necessity". Defining 'luxury and necessity' is the root of that statement. In Poland, just before the fall of communism, they had only Vanilla, Chocolate and 'Pink' ice-cream, because anything else was bourgeois (i.e. a luxury), and banned. In Bulgaria, there was no ice-cream. :) Food is definitely on some level a 'necessity' and we definitely have not socialized that. Maybe we can make sure everyone gets healthcare without socializing too hard as well.

Clubber 10y ago
The problem with the theory of communism economics is we've only seen it implemented a few times, and they've all been terrible. Communism, I believe, was to be implemented in a post industrial country. When Russia implemented it, they were pre-industrial, and during a massive war. As an aside, Germany actually shipped, by train, an exiled Lenin to Russia to destabilize it during WWI.
- Retra 10y ago
  The problem with communism is the same problem with unregulated capitalism: when you give extraordinary power to a small minority, everyone else suffers. There's also the problem that violent revolutions are extremely risky, and are unlikely to result in anything but a dictatorship, exacerbating the previous point. Most failed communist communist governments have these problems, as do most failed capitalist governments. Until you have a peaceful transition into a communist system properly hardened against corruption, you'll have little real reason to believe it is any more flawed than capitalist economies.
  - Clubber 10y ago
    I don't think you can reasonably compare the suffering of any capitalist society with the suffering of Soviet Russia, especially in the 1930s.
    - RugnirViking 10y ago
      You can try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_India_Company#Conflicts_and_wars_involving_the_VOC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_India_Company#Confl...
Gustomaximus 10y ago
You've misunderstood my statement. I understand living behind the iron curtain was horrible for many. Like you I know people that fled this situation. And I am absolutely not advocating/romanticizing communism/socialism. My point is ANYTHING communism/socialism became a negative point. Kinda how you jumped on my comment without as though I was being a communist/socialist avocate when I was saying elements of have potential. Healthcare in USA is a good real world example. Most developed nations do universal healthcare and its the preferred way for the majority in these countries with clearly better outcomes for the mass. Many Americans still seem emotionally charged against 'socialising healthcare', argueing this is not a viable alternative despite significant empirical examples proving this works well. And also allows for integration with private alternatives for those that want service options. I just feel the world is getting more ration in its discussion on this point. Plenty if irrationality remaining elsewhere :)
boomboomsubban 10y ago
>Communists are definitely 'dirty'. They represent, in reality - the world's greatest movement of mass murder and oppression The second greatest is capitalism throughout the period of colonialism, and who knows which would win given an equal population at the time. Very few of the things you list have even tangential links to an economic system, and the few that do are confirmation of a central tenet of Communism, the need of a worldwide revolution. People aren't ignoring the lessons history with their continued support of Communism/Socialism, they're looking past the surface commonly brought up. One of the first acts of the Bolsheviks was the elimination of any Soviet that had been formed. They went for a totalitarian approach from the start, and any small hope of that succeeding died when basically every nation in WWI declared war on them. This is very similar to what happened in the French revolution, and the results are very similar. Economic theory isn't to blame for the atrocities committed during revolution and by tyrants. There are a host of reasons those events happened, and capitalism isn't some magic shield stopping them from happening again. Oh, and food definitely has been socialized. The combination of farm subsidies, insurance programs, and welfare programs work to ensure everyone has access to it.

Clubber 10y ago

The problem with the theory of communism economics is we've only seen it implemented a few times, and they've all been terrible. Communism, I believe, was to be implemented in a post industrial country. When Russia implemented it, they were pre-industrial, and during a massive war. As an aside, Germany actually shipped, by train, an exiled Lenin to Russia to destabilize it during WWI.

Retra 10y ago
The problem with communism is the same problem with unregulated capitalism: when you give extraordinary power to a small minority, everyone else suffers. There's also the problem that violent revolutions are extremely risky, and are unlikely to result in anything but a dictatorship, exacerbating the previous point. Most failed communist communist governments have these problems, as do most failed capitalist governments. Until you have a peaceful transition into a communist system properly hardened against corruption, you'll have little real reason to believe it is any more flawed than capitalist economies.
- Clubber 10y ago
  I don't think you can reasonably compare the suffering of any capitalist society with the suffering of Soviet Russia, especially in the 1930s.
  - RugnirViking 10y ago
    You can try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_India_Company#Conflicts_and_wars_involving_the_VOC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_India_Company#Confl...

Gustomaximus 10y ago

You've misunderstood my statement. I understand living behind the iron curtain was horrible for many. Like you I know people that fled this situation. And I am absolutely not advocating/romanticizing communism/socialism. My point is ANYTHING communism/socialism became a negative point. Kinda how you jumped on my comment without as though I was being a communist/socialist avocate when I was saying elements of have potential. Healthcare in USA is a good real world example. Most developed nations do universal healthcare and its the preferred way for the majority in these countries with clearly better outcomes for the mass. Many Americans still seem emotionally charged against 'socialising healthcare', argueing this is not a viable alternative despite significant empirical examples proving this works well. And also allows for integration with private alternatives for those that want service options. I just feel the world is getting more ration in its discussion on this point. Plenty if irrationality remaining elsewhere :)

boomboomsubban 10y ago

>Communists are definitely 'dirty'. They represent, in reality - the world's greatest movement of mass murder and oppression The second greatest is capitalism throughout the period of colonialism, and who knows which would win given an equal population at the time. Very few of the things you list have even tangential links to an economic system, and the few that do are confirmation of a central tenet of Communism, the need of a worldwide revolution. People aren't ignoring the lessons history with their continued support of Communism/Socialism, they're looking past the surface commonly brought up. One of the first acts of the Bolsheviks was the elimination of any Soviet that had been formed. They went for a totalitarian approach from the start, and any small hope of that succeeding died when basically every nation in WWI declared war on them. This is very similar to what happened in the French revolution, and the results are very similar. Economic theory isn't to blame for the atrocities committed during revolution and by tyrants. There are a host of reasons those events happened, and capitalism isn't some magic shield stopping them from happening again. Oh, and food definitely has been socialized. The combination of farm subsidies, insurance programs, and welfare programs work to ensure everyone has access to it.