4 ms·

> who do you want to hire, all else being equal? That's the point. It's freezing out people who are equally competent, but can't perform as well at this arbitr

> who do you want to hire, all else being equal? That's the point. It's freezing out people who are equally competent, but can't perform as well at this arbitrary step.

brianpgordon 10y ago
They're equally competent except that they can't design an algorithm on demand based on remembered strategies for solving problems, or talk intelligently about the trivia of the field that can come up in a technical interview, or tell you the asymptotic running time of a given algorithm, or comfortably rattle off a bunch of code from experience without needing to look things up online, etc. That's not the same as being equally competent.
- memracom 10y ago
  Rushing into coding something using abstract mathematical computer science techniques is a poor way to solve real world business problems. The person who has spent time in the real world raising kids realizes that you do not build business value by being a smartass know-it-all and that when time and money are of the essence, something quick and dirty, maybe even brute force, will save the business, please the customer, and provide you the money to fight another day. Do not hire the smart ass. Take the person who lives in the real world.
  - OJFord 10y ago
    > Rushing into coding something using abstract mathematical computer science techniques is a poor way to solve real world business problems. (If you want a disclaimer, I'm not really sure which side I come down on with this, but:) Knowing how to model something abstractly, and what known good algorithms might be applicable, is exactly not 'rushing into coding'.
    - Apocryphon 10y ago
      It is when it's done within an artificial fifty minute-long timeframe.
  - ceronman 10y ago
    This is a strawman argument. Nobody is saying that algorithm and data structures knowledge is preferred over pragmatism, commercial awareness and real world problem solving. What brianpgordo is saying is that algorithms and data structures are an important quality in addition to those.
  - derefr 10y ago
    That presumes a specific type of engineering role. Here's another: the founders already coded all the brute-force versions of everything. Now they want their software to scale. You will use your knowledge of algorithms and data structures (and distributed systems) to turn their one node that handles 10 events per second into a cluster that handles 10 million per second with low latency across several geographic regions.
    - dropit_sphere 10y ago
      Yeah but at this point how are you going to be able to know what to ask? If you have someone who's a better algo ninja such that they can do a whiteboard interview on the things that matter, then have them write your solution. If you don't, either look for someone who's done something like your problem before, and ask about resume/experience instead of whiteboard gauntlets. Or acknowledge that it's a research&implement position, and... again, skip the gauntlet.
- autokad 10y ago
  those algorithms were discovered by PHD students spending years to come up with them. doubt someone will invent them in a 20 minute window without any reference material. the question is asking if you seen that before, period.
- digler999 10y ago
  I neither agree or disagree with you, but what concerns me is that your same logic can be applied to the "top tier university" farce: "They're equally competent except that they didn't go to a school like MIT or Carnegie Mellon known for the highest quality CS departments. They obviously would've been accepted if they were top-tier grad material, so they are qualitatively not the same as being equally competent to someone who graduated from one of those programs". I do agree with you inasmuch as they need to be able to speak intelligently about CS. Whether or not they can recite some textbook taxonomy of algorithms, they need to know how to describe and critique an algorithm or describe how a program works.
synicalx 10y ago
Equally competent, but lacking in basic knowledge? It's a miracle!

> who do you want to hire, all else being equal? That's the point. It's freezing out people who are equally competent, but can't perform as well at this arbitrary step.

brianpgordon 10y ago

They're equally competent except that they can't design an algorithm on demand based on remembered strategies for solving problems, or talk intelligently about the trivia of the field that can come up in a technical interview, or tell you the asymptotic running time of a given algorithm, or comfortably rattle off a bunch of code from experience without needing to look things up online, etc. That's not the same as being equally competent.

memracom 10y ago
Rushing into coding something using abstract mathematical computer science techniques is a poor way to solve real world business problems. The person who has spent time in the real world raising kids realizes that you do not build business value by being a smartass know-it-all and that when time and money are of the essence, something quick and dirty, maybe even brute force, will save the business, please the customer, and provide you the money to fight another day. Do not hire the smart ass. Take the person who lives in the real world.
- OJFord 10y ago
  > Rushing into coding something using abstract mathematical computer science techniques is a poor way to solve real world business problems. (If you want a disclaimer, I'm not really sure which side I come down on with this, but:) Knowing how to model something abstractly, and what known good algorithms might be applicable, is exactly not 'rushing into coding'.
  - Apocryphon 10y ago
    It is when it's done within an artificial fifty minute-long timeframe.
- ceronman 10y ago
  This is a strawman argument. Nobody is saying that algorithm and data structures knowledge is preferred over pragmatism, commercial awareness and real world problem solving. What brianpgordo is saying is that algorithms and data structures are an important quality in addition to those.
- derefr 10y ago
  That presumes a specific type of engineering role. Here's another: the founders already coded all the brute-force versions of everything. Now they want their software to scale. You will use your knowledge of algorithms and data structures (and distributed systems) to turn their one node that handles 10 events per second into a cluster that handles 10 million per second with low latency across several geographic regions.
  - dropit_sphere 10y ago
    Yeah but at this point how are you going to be able to know what to ask? If you have someone who's a better algo ninja such that they can do a whiteboard interview on the things that matter, then have them write your solution. If you don't, either look for someone who's done something like your problem before, and ask about resume/experience instead of whiteboard gauntlets. Or acknowledge that it's a research&implement position, and... again, skip the gauntlet.
autokad 10y ago
those algorithms were discovered by PHD students spending years to come up with them. doubt someone will invent them in a 20 minute window without any reference material. the question is asking if you seen that before, period.
digler999 10y ago
I neither agree or disagree with you, but what concerns me is that your same logic can be applied to the "top tier university" farce: "They're equally competent except that they didn't go to a school like MIT or Carnegie Mellon known for the highest quality CS departments. They obviously would've been accepted if they were top-tier grad material, so they are qualitatively not the same as being equally competent to someone who graduated from one of those programs". I do agree with you inasmuch as they need to be able to speak intelligently about CS. Whether or not they can recite some textbook taxonomy of algorithms, they need to know how to describe and critique an algorithm or describe how a program works.

synicalx 10y ago

Equally competent, but lacking in basic knowledge? It's a miracle!