5 ms·

$2000/month for day care or camps or lessons or whatever... $2000/month for health insurance for family. $2000+/month in rent or mortgage $1000/month in groc

$2000/month for day care or camps or lessons or whatever... $2000/month for health insurance for family. $2000+/month in rent or mortgage $1000/month in groceries And we are up to $100,000 a year in just the bare one expenses to exist. Maybe add some retirement savings, a vacation for a week or two, maybe some college savings, and we are into $200,000+ territory.

brianwawok 10y ago
In a single worker house, no daycare - so strike that. $2000 for health insurance in the US? Not from a professional job. Normal employee copays for a famils are in the $200-$400 per month range. $2000 rent? No way. Move. You can live for $1000 or less in many areas of the world with great jobs. $1000 groceries? No way, try more like $500. here is the spending report of a family of 3. It is about $25,000. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-familys-2014-spending/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-fa... That should be the baseline for where you think. Not some crazy fantasy land with a $2000 mortgage and $2000 daycare (despite 1 parent being stay at home)
- Arizhel 10y ago
  >Normal employee copays for a famils are in the $200-$400 per month range. Completely wrong. Mine is about $850 for two people, no kids.
  - brianwawok 10y ago
    Total cost on the open market for that kind of plan is 1k - 1.2k, so your work basically has no health benefit? I have never had that experience...
    - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
      Yeah, my health insurance costs about $800/month before the employer portion, for two people, no preexisting conditions, no children.
    - st3v3r 10y ago
      The guy telling others how to live their life has no experience contrary to their own, and thus no empathy? Fancy that.
- ashark 10y ago
  MMM's posts are all from the perspective of someone who: 1) has a paid off house, 2) has a lot of money in the bank, can get a job with benefits easily on short-ish notice and has no-one with chronic illnesses in his household (= incredibly low health insurance costs). He also gains all kinds of savings by not being dependent on a 9-5, like having enormous choice in housing location, lower transportation expenses, and so on. This is the end state of someone who's made it, and spending at that level's not realistic for a family that's still working, because their spending is necessarily much higher due to having fewer options to reduce costs. I like the general attitude of that blog, but after going on a reading binge of it a couple years ago I came away with the impression that it's subtly misleading and kinda scummy. Stuff like "how I thrive with no job (by already having a ton of money, and actually having 3 part-time jobs, one of which is getting you to click affiliate links on this very blog)", or "Why are you paying so much for health insurance, really guys, it's cheap (if you're in an exactly perfect life situation, what, are you not?)" Clickbaity humblebragging and condescending wankery mixed with good advice about frugality (some of which is actually useful to people who don't already have a ton of money in the bank), in service of making him money via one of his not-jobs. > Normal employee copays for a famils are in the $200-$400 per month range. No. Maybe for one person, not a family. Yes, there are companies that deliver great benefits on health care (I'm at one) but they're exceptional. $2000 seems high, but $200-400 is low by at least half.
  - RUG3Y 10y ago
    I agree. MMM is completely unhelpful for someone who is not already in a great position. If you have great income and you want to retire early by saving on some big expenses, MMM probably has some good advice for you. If you are relatively poor and you're trying to figure out how to pay off your student loans, fix your beater that you need to get to the office, and afford health insurance, while having essentially zero money left over, MMM's advice is essentially worthless. It's like telling a homeless guy with no jacket, "Why are you cold? Just put a jacket on."
  - laughfactory 10y ago
    Or find a company which pays the entire premium for the entire family. They do exist. I work for one and it's awesome.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  I stopped taking you seriously when you said "move".
  - laughfactory 10y ago
    LOL and I just said the same thing.
unit91 10y ago
I think these are really inflated. I've got 5 kids, my wife doesn't work, and our expenses in the categories above are: $150/month for day care or camps or lessons or whatever... $500/month for health insurance for family [my portion, the company has a plan] $1500 month in rent or mortgage $1000/month in groceries That's just under $38,000 per year. I make more now, but we lived very comfortably when I made $80,000 per year (before tax).
- sheeshkebab 10y ago
  Yes, completely overpriced relative to average costs across us - however these are real for major metro areas (ny, dc, sf, Boston etc). Unless you make $250k+/year there, it's not worth being in these areas.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    The median family income for those metro areas is nowhere near $100k. I spot checked Boston and its $53,657.
  - laughfactory 10y ago
    Yep. I've got one word of advice: move!
jane4ender 10y ago
I am a 3rd year dev living on 70k income. Wife works >20 hrs part time. 2 kids. I live in the US between the Rocky and the Appalachian mountains where the cost of living is reasonable. Things are tight, but solid. $800/mo rent (4 bedroom house, .7 acres) $800/mo debt, 2 car payments $200/mo gas $500/mo savings $600/mo groceries $500/mo utilities, phone, internet, streaming $250/mo car, life insurance Not even at 50k a year for essential expenses. It's doable. At 100k I'd have pretty much no financial worries, and at 200k, I'd have better problems to worry about. :)
nommm-nommm 10y ago
I honestly can't tell if you are being serous or not. $2,000/month entertainment is included in "bare one expenses to exist?" No. That's pretty extravagant. Sure, you are probably going to need 2 incomes if that's the kind of lifestyle you want but don't kid yourself its some sort of bare minimum. Growing up my family of five (three kids, two parents) somehow managed to live in a two bedroom apartment with one car and played in public parks and other public facilities for entertainment. We wore hand-me-downs and had little in terms of "stuff," we didn't have any room to store it anyways. I am much happier I grew up without excess toys/objects/items as most of our play was centered around imagination. Children are really good at entertaining themselves if left to their own devices. It also made me appreciate what I did have. Basically, I didn't grew up even remotely in squalor or anything like that. It would have been nice to have my own bedroom but it wasn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things. --- My family now has two incomes/jobs but only one car, we share a car ride to work, one drops the other off in the morning and picks them up in the evening. it's kinda annoying at times. I want to get a second car but every time I run the numbers in my head I can't justify the huge added expense just to alleviate a little bit of annoyance/inconvenience. So anyways, you can do with a lot less if you actually wanted to. "This is how much I spend" isn't the same thing as "this is how much I am required to spend."
- sheeshkebab 10y ago
  $2000/month in camps/lessons/kids activities/afterschool care (far from entertainment).
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    camps = entertainment lessons = entertainment kids activities = entertainment None of those are some sort of bare bones living expenses. They are nice to haves if you can afford it. afterschool care = not required if one parent stays home or works a different shift.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]

brianwawok 10y ago

In a single worker house, no daycare - so strike that. $2000 for health insurance in the US? Not from a professional job. Normal employee copays for a famils are in the $200-$400 per month range. $2000 rent? No way. Move. You can live for $1000 or less in many areas of the world with great jobs. $1000 groceries? No way, try more like $500. here is the spending report of a family of 3. It is about $25,000. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-familys-2014-spending/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-fa... That should be the baseline for where you think. Not some crazy fantasy land with a $2000 mortgage and $2000 daycare (despite 1 parent being stay at home)

Arizhel 10y ago
>Normal employee copays for a famils are in the $200-$400 per month range. Completely wrong. Mine is about $850 for two people, no kids.
- brianwawok 10y ago
  Total cost on the open market for that kind of plan is 1k - 1.2k, so your work basically has no health benefit? I have never had that experience...
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
    Yeah, my health insurance costs about $800/month before the employer portion, for two people, no preexisting conditions, no children.
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    The guy telling others how to live their life has no experience contrary to their own, and thus no empathy? Fancy that.
ashark 10y ago
MMM's posts are all from the perspective of someone who: 1) has a paid off house, 2) has a lot of money in the bank, can get a job with benefits easily on short-ish notice and has no-one with chronic illnesses in his household (= incredibly low health insurance costs). He also gains all kinds of savings by not being dependent on a 9-5, like having enormous choice in housing location, lower transportation expenses, and so on. This is the end state of someone who's made it, and spending at that level's not realistic for a family that's still working, because their spending is necessarily much higher due to having fewer options to reduce costs. I like the general attitude of that blog, but after going on a reading binge of it a couple years ago I came away with the impression that it's subtly misleading and kinda scummy. Stuff like "how I thrive with no job (by already having a ton of money, and actually having 3 part-time jobs, one of which is getting you to click affiliate links on this very blog)", or "Why are you paying so much for health insurance, really guys, it's cheap (if you're in an exactly perfect life situation, what, are you not?)" Clickbaity humblebragging and condescending wankery mixed with good advice about frugality (some of which is actually useful to people who don't already have a ton of money in the bank), in service of making him money via one of his not-jobs. > Normal employee copays for a famils are in the $200-$400 per month range. No. Maybe for one person, not a family. Yes, there are companies that deliver great benefits on health care (I'm at one) but they're exceptional. $2000 seems high, but $200-400 is low by at least half.
- RUG3Y 10y ago
  I agree. MMM is completely unhelpful for someone who is not already in a great position. If you have great income and you want to retire early by saving on some big expenses, MMM probably has some good advice for you. If you are relatively poor and you're trying to figure out how to pay off your student loans, fix your beater that you need to get to the office, and afford health insurance, while having essentially zero money left over, MMM's advice is essentially worthless. It's like telling a homeless guy with no jacket, "Why are you cold? Just put a jacket on."
- laughfactory 10y ago
  Or find a company which pays the entire premium for the entire family. They do exist. I work for one and it's awesome.
st3v3r 10y ago
I stopped taking you seriously when you said "move".
- laughfactory 10y ago
  LOL and I just said the same thing.

unit91 10y ago

I think these are really inflated. I've got 5 kids, my wife doesn't work, and our expenses in the categories above are: $150/month for day care or camps or lessons or whatever... $500/month for health insurance for family [my portion, the company has a plan] $1500 month in rent or mortgage $1000/month in groceries That's just under $38,000 per year. I make more now, but we lived very comfortably when I made $80,000 per year (before tax).

sheeshkebab 10y ago
Yes, completely overpriced relative to average costs across us - however these are real for major metro areas (ny, dc, sf, Boston etc). Unless you make $250k+/year there, it's not worth being in these areas.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  The median family income for those metro areas is nowhere near $100k. I spot checked Boston and its $53,657.
- laughfactory 10y ago
  Yep. I've got one word of advice: move!

jane4ender 10y ago

I am a 3rd year dev living on 70k income. Wife works >20 hrs part time. 2 kids. I live in the US between the Rocky and the Appalachian mountains where the cost of living is reasonable. Things are tight, but solid. $800/mo rent (4 bedroom house, .7 acres) $800/mo debt, 2 car payments $200/mo gas $500/mo savings $600/mo groceries $500/mo utilities, phone, internet, streaming $250/mo car, life insurance Not even at 50k a year for essential expenses. It's doable. At 100k I'd have pretty much no financial worries, and at 200k, I'd have better problems to worry about. :)

nommm-nommm 10y ago

I honestly can't tell if you are being serous or not. $2,000/month entertainment is included in "bare one expenses to exist?" No. That's pretty extravagant. Sure, you are probably going to need 2 incomes if that's the kind of lifestyle you want but don't kid yourself its some sort of bare minimum. Growing up my family of five (three kids, two parents) somehow managed to live in a two bedroom apartment with one car and played in public parks and other public facilities for entertainment. We wore hand-me-downs and had little in terms of "stuff," we didn't have any room to store it anyways. I am much happier I grew up without excess toys/objects/items as most of our play was centered around imagination. Children are really good at entertaining themselves if left to their own devices. It also made me appreciate what I did have. Basically, I didn't grew up even remotely in squalor or anything like that. It would have been nice to have my own bedroom but it wasn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things. --- My family now has two incomes/jobs but only one car, we share a car ride to work, one drops the other off in the morning and picks them up in the evening. it's kinda annoying at times. I want to get a second car but every time I run the numbers in my head I can't justify the huge added expense just to alleviate a little bit of annoyance/inconvenience. So anyways, you can do with a lot less if you actually wanted to. "This is how much I spend" isn't the same thing as "this is how much I am required to spend."

sheeshkebab 10y ago
$2000/month in camps/lessons/kids activities/afterschool care (far from entertainment).
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  camps = entertainment lessons = entertainment kids activities = entertainment None of those are some sort of bare bones living expenses. They are nice to haves if you can afford it. afterschool care = not required if one parent stays home or works a different shift.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]