4 ms·

I don't think "incredibly hard" is a good term. In more development terms, to me, "incredibly hard" is embedded assembly programming (im probably not even usin

I don't think "incredibly hard" is a good term. In more development terms, to me, "incredibly hard" is embedded assembly programming (im probably not even using the right term for this) ... The level of hard i would put DF at is "learning VIM"... which I think is apt, because 1) its a steep but rather short learning curve to get around, 2) over a while you naturally get better at navigating/commanding/etc and 3) there are plugins and "distributions" just like vim, to make it easier for a beginner, etc. Now that I write this out, im thinking VIM is the perfect analog for DF :) [NOTE] I'm a DF n00b. I have less than 5 hours playing. I'd say it took me about 30 minutes to "get it" though, and now I'm actually playing what I would consider "normally"

jackmott 10y ago
It may be instructional that I think learning VIM and DF is harder than assembly programming? =)
eduren 10y ago
I think vim/emacs is an apt comparison.
thefifthsetpin 10y ago
I like your analogy, but what's missing is that the vim interface is much (much!) more powerful than the DF interface. Any number of DF players who are also UI designers (hey, there have gotta be a lot of 'em) could propose a dozen minor interface changes that would make DF feel more consistent, and easier to learn without even changing any of the mechanics of the game. You couldn't say that about vim. (Or, if you could, I'd love to hear your interface change proposals for vim!)
- LanceH 10y ago
  Move the default movement keys to the home position -- shift them right by one. Right now I have to choose between shifting my hand off the home position or my index finger doing double duty. JKL; is very comfortable to move around with.
  - dagenleg 10y ago
    But that's totally possible with a slight change in .vimrc. I would argue that since you can change it in .vimrc your proposed rebinding is still part of the vim "interface".
sixo 10y ago
This sounds right. And there's a reason more people don't use VIM, or play DF.
- imdsm 10y ago
  Indeed, the high barrier of entry, but for those of us who have entered, we enjoy a very privileged membership that just keeps on giving. I'm a ten year veteran, and have helped many other "hardcore" gamers to get into it, but none of them have stuck with it, citing difficulty. It's a shame, as it has more to give than any other game.
htns 10y ago
Agreed but it's quite fair in the context of modern gaming. A lesser game might even have a tech tree and a progression acting as a tutorial. "You have reached a population of 20! You can now build cabinets and statues!"
partycoder 10y ago
Please do not get me wrong. Dwarf Fortress is a fantastic game. The only thing I am saying is that the usability is complex with respect to what I am used to, in games. It reminds me of using flight simulators. Many instruments and controls that you need to learn and understand.

jackmott 10y ago

It may be instructional that I think learning VIM and DF is harder than assembly programming? =)

eduren 10y ago

I think vim/emacs is an apt comparison.

thefifthsetpin 10y ago

I like your analogy, but what's missing is that the vim interface is much (much!) more powerful than the DF interface. Any number of DF players who are also UI designers (hey, there have gotta be a lot of 'em) could propose a dozen minor interface changes that would make DF feel more consistent, and easier to learn without even changing any of the mechanics of the game. You couldn't say that about vim. (Or, if you could, I'd love to hear your interface change proposals for vim!)

LanceH 10y ago
Move the default movement keys to the home position -- shift them right by one. Right now I have to choose between shifting my hand off the home position or my index finger doing double duty. JKL; is very comfortable to move around with.
- dagenleg 10y ago
  But that's totally possible with a slight change in .vimrc. I would argue that since you can change it in .vimrc your proposed rebinding is still part of the vim "interface".

sixo 10y ago

This sounds right. And there's a reason more people don't use VIM, or play DF.

imdsm 10y ago
Indeed, the high barrier of entry, but for those of us who have entered, we enjoy a very privileged membership that just keeps on giving. I'm a ten year veteran, and have helped many other "hardcore" gamers to get into it, but none of them have stuck with it, citing difficulty. It's a shame, as it has more to give than any other game.

htns 10y ago

Agreed but it's quite fair in the context of modern gaming. A lesser game might even have a tech tree and a progression acting as a tutorial. "You have reached a population of 20! You can now build cabinets and statues!"

partycoder 10y ago

Please do not get me wrong. Dwarf Fortress is a fantastic game. The only thing I am saying is that the usability is complex with respect to what I am used to, in games. It reminds me of using flight simulators. Many instruments and controls that you need to learn and understand.