8 ms·

40 hour work weeks, for both parents, are discussed. I am just describing the world only 30 years ago. A double income is almost a requirement now.

brianwawok 10y ago
On based on the "required" standing of living. 2 cars, $150 cable package, $200 cell phone package, 4000 square foot homes. Single income COULD work for the vast majority of Americans, but then they need to be happy with less stuff.
- the-dude 10y ago
  We had a car and a small house, but my father returned from the office every day ... to have lunch with us! As far as I remember, all my class mates went home for lunch ( we actually had dinner ).
- sheeshkebab 10y ago
  $2000/month for day care or camps or lessons or whatever... $2000/month for health insurance for family. $2000+/month in rent or mortgage $1000/month in groceries And we are up to $100,000 a year in just the bare one expenses to exist. Maybe add some retirement savings, a vacation for a week or two, maybe some college savings, and we are into $200,000+ territory.
  - brianwawok 10y ago
    In a single worker house, no daycare - so strike that. $2000 for health insurance in the US? Not from a professional job. Normal employee copays for a famils are in the $200-$400 per month range. $2000 rent? No way. Move. You can live for $1000 or less in many areas of the world with great jobs. $1000 groceries? No way, try more like $500. here is the spending report of a family of 3. It is about $25,000. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-familys-2014-spending/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-fa... That should be the baseline for where you think. Not some crazy fantasy land with a $2000 mortgage and $2000 daycare (despite 1 parent being stay at home)
    - Arizhel 10y ago
      >Normal employee copays for a famils are in the $200-$400 per month range. Completely wrong. Mine is about $850 for two people, no kids.
      - brianwawok 10y ago
        Total cost on the open market for that kind of plan is 1k - 1.2k, so your work basically has no health benefit? I have never had that experience...
        eli_gottlieb 10y ago
        Yeah, my health insurance costs about $800/month before the employer portion, for two people, no preexisting conditions, no children.
        st3v3r 10y ago
        The guy telling others how to live their life has no experience contrary to their own, and thus no empathy? Fancy that.
    - ashark 10y ago
      MMM's posts are all from the perspective of someone who: 1) has a paid off house, 2) has a lot of money in the bank, can get a job with benefits easily on short-ish notice and has no-one with chronic illnesses in his household (= incredibly low health insurance costs). He also gains all kinds of savings by not being dependent on a 9-5, like having enormous choice in housing location, lower transportation expenses, and so on. This is the end state of someone who's made it, and spending at that level's not realistic for a family that's still working, because their spending is necessarily much higher due to having fewer options to reduce costs. I like the general attitude of that blog, but after going on a reading binge of it a couple years ago I came away with the impression that it's subtly misleading and kinda scummy. Stuff like "how I thrive with no job (by already having a ton of money, and actually having 3 part-time jobs, one of which is getting you to click affiliate links on this very blog)", or "Why are you paying so much for health insurance, really guys, it's cheap (if you're in an exactly perfect life situation, what, are you not?)" Clickbaity humblebragging and condescending wankery mixed with good advice about frugality (some of which is actually useful to people who don't already have a ton of money in the bank), in service of making him money via one of his not-jobs. > Normal employee copays for a famils are in the $200-$400 per month range. No. Maybe for one person, not a family. Yes, there are companies that deliver great benefits on health care (I'm at one) but they're exceptional. $2000 seems high, but $200-400 is low by at least half.
  - unit91 10y ago
    I think these are really inflated. I've got 5 kids, my wife doesn't work, and our expenses in the categories above are: $150/month for day care or camps or lessons or whatever... $500/month for health insurance for family [my portion, the company has a plan] $1500 month in rent or mortgage $1000/month in groceries That's just under $38,000 per year. I make more now, but we lived very comfortably when I made $80,000 per year (before tax).
    - sheeshkebab 10y ago
      Yes, completely overpriced relative to average costs across us - however these are real for major metro areas (ny, dc, sf, Boston etc). Unless you make $250k+/year there, it's not worth being in these areas.
      - nommm-nommm 10y ago
        The median family income for those metro areas is nowhere near $100k. I spot checked Boston and its $53,657.
      - laughfactory 10y ago
        Yep. I've got one word of advice: move!
  - jane4ender 10y ago
    I am a 3rd year dev living on 70k income. Wife works >20 hrs part time. 2 kids. I live in the US between the Rocky and the Appalachian mountains where the cost of living is reasonable. Things are tight, but solid. $800/mo rent (4 bedroom house, .7 acres) $800/mo debt, 2 car payments $200/mo gas $500/mo savings $600/mo groceries $500/mo utilities, phone, internet, streaming $250/mo car, life insurance Not even at 50k a year for essential expenses. It's doable. At 100k I'd have pretty much no financial worries, and at 200k, I'd have better problems to worry about. :)
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    I honestly can't tell if you are being serous or not. $2,000/month entertainment is included in "bare one expenses to exist?" No. That's pretty extravagant. Sure, you are probably going to need 2 incomes if that's the kind of lifestyle you want but don't kid yourself its some sort of bare minimum. Growing up my family of five (three kids, two parents) somehow managed to live in a two bedroom apartment with one car and played in public parks and other public facilities for entertainment. We wore hand-me-downs and had little in terms of "stuff," we didn't have any room to store it anyways. I am much happier I grew up without excess toys/objects/items as most of our play was centered around imagination. Children are really good at entertaining themselves if left to their own devices. It also made me appreciate what I did have. Basically, I didn't grew up even remotely in squalor or anything like that. It would have been nice to have my own bedroom but it wasn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things. --- My family now has two incomes/jobs but only one car, we share a car ride to work, one drops the other off in the morning and picks them up in the evening. it's kinda annoying at times. I want to get a second car but every time I run the numbers in my head I can't justify the huge added expense just to alleviate a little bit of annoyance/inconvenience. So anyways, you can do with a lot less if you actually wanted to. "This is how much I spend" isn't the same thing as "this is how much I am required to spend."
    - sheeshkebab 10y ago
      $2000/month in camps/lessons/kids activities/afterschool care (far from entertainment).
      - nommm-nommm 10y ago
        camps = entertainment lessons = entertainment kids activities = entertainment None of those are some sort of bare bones living expenses. They are nice to haves if you can afford it. afterschool care = not required if one parent stays home or works a different shift.
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
- ashark 10y ago
  There are no 50s-sized cheap houses within walking distance of employment centers in good school districts in my city. Out where the good schools are, they only build McMansions. This is the typical case for cities in the US. I live in a big-ass house in the 'burbs because a big-ass house in the 'burbs is cheaper than a smaller one still capable of (more or less) comfortably housing 2 adults + 3 kids in the city, plus private school for those three kids. It's not because I love McMansions and owning cars and being far from everything. As for entertainment spending (Netflix, cell phones, et c), it's nothing next to (especially) housing and (even cooked at home) food. Cutting all of that wouldn't get us down to a secure, responsible income level with only one parent working.
  - Arizhel 10y ago
    The other problem is utility bills. These anti-big-house people complain how people don't need giant houses, but they completely ignore how horribly inefficient older houses are. It probably costs a lot less to heat and cool your McMansion than it would a 50-year-old house that's half the size. I really wish it were easy to find nice, well-built, efficient, modestly sized houses in neighborhoods where you don't have ex-cons living next to you, vicious dogs running loose, etc. That just doesn't seem to be the case.
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      That seems suspect. How much does it cost to heat and cool a McMansion in dollars? I live in a 2000 square foot 75 year old house and my utilities are very reasonable.
      - hfsktr 10y ago
        When I lived at my grandmother's house (rented from her), the utility bill was almost as much as rent through the winter (I think the highest I saw was about $500 one month). The house is from like 1890 or whatever and they did add insulation and all but the heater was on a lot.
        10y ago
- 1_2__3 10y ago
  Stop with the standard of living shaming. You're not convincing anyone and you're ignoring the fact that even if you adjust/account for that the issues being discussed here are the same. In other words you're just doing moral finger-wagging, not making a substantive argument.
  - pc86 10y ago
    The substantive argument is that people spend a lot of money on things they don't need, then complain that they don't have the money to cut their hours and earn less money (if that's even an option). You're the one not making any substantive arguments by just calling it "shaming"
    - RUG3Y 10y ago
      Some people do, and a lot of other people are genuinely having a rough go.
- Arizhel 10y ago
  Absolutely wrong. No, you don't need $150 cable packages and $200 cellular packages. I don't have those myself. My cellphone bill with Ting is about $30/month for myself, and I got my 3-year-old phone on Ebay used. And no, you don't need a 4000sf home. But most people do want a decent home in a decent, low-crime neighborhood. The problem is that it's very hard to afford that on a single income, even after you cut out extravangances like $150 cable packages. The fundamental problem is that the rent is too damn high.
  - brianwawok 10y ago
    Where do you live? You should move.
- thex10 10y ago
  Consider that the costs of those vehicles, communications devices, and shelter have increased much faster than wages have. But no, what you choose to take from that reality is "they need to be happy with less stuff"
  - brianwawok 10y ago
    Why do you even need a motorized wheelchair, if you have 2 working legs? It doesn't matter how much something costs if you don't buy it.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    Well houses have been getting bigger at the same time families have been getting smaller. The living space per person has almost doubled since the 70s. https://www.aei.org/publication/todays-new-homes-are-1000-square-feet-larger-than-in-1973-and-the-living-space-per-person-has-doubled-over-last-40-years/ https://www.aei.org/publication/todays-new-homes-are-1000-sq...
- watwut 10y ago
  Place with good school, college debt and healthcare are way more expensive. Cable and cellphone packages are pretty much irrelevant.
- RUG3Y 10y ago
  I have: - 2 paid for cars, one has 200k miles on it and is sitting dead in the driveway. - a 1200 square foot house outside of town, not in a nice area. It's the cheapest house I could find and the only one I could afford. - Internet. - Cell phone. - No cable, no Netflix, very little dining out (always somewhere cheap) and no other debts other than mortgage. I have a decent income for the area I'm in, and still barely get by on a single income. I really don't understand how other people are making it. I'm either much worse off than I think or most people are just doing so much better.
- laughfactory 10y ago
  Which, I'll point out, would be a vast improvement for our environmental impact...
hnal943 10y ago
That's crazy. Almost every couple I know is single income, in order to better provide for the kids. It's not a requirement.
- laughfactory 10y ago
  That's how we roll, too. I don't know how dual-earners do it. When the hell do you pick up the house, clean, pay bills, spend time with each other? Seems like it'd be an incredibly hectic way to live life.

brianwawok 10y ago

On based on the "required" standing of living. 2 cars, $150 cable package, $200 cell phone package, 4000 square foot homes. Single income COULD work for the vast majority of Americans, but then they need to be happy with less stuff.

the-dude 10y ago
We had a car and a small house, but my father returned from the office every day ... to have lunch with us! As far as I remember, all my class mates went home for lunch ( we actually had dinner ).
sheeshkebab 10y ago
$2000/month for day care or camps or lessons or whatever... $2000/month for health insurance for family. $2000+/month in rent or mortgage $1000/month in groceries And we are up to $100,000 a year in just the bare one expenses to exist. Maybe add some retirement savings, a vacation for a week or two, maybe some college savings, and we are into $200,000+ territory.
- brianwawok 10y ago
  In a single worker house, no daycare - so strike that. $2000 for health insurance in the US? Not from a professional job. Normal employee copays for a famils are in the $200-$400 per month range. $2000 rent? No way. Move. You can live for $1000 or less in many areas of the world with great jobs. $1000 groceries? No way, try more like $500. here is the spending report of a family of 3. It is about $25,000. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-familys-2014-spending/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-fa... That should be the baseline for where you think. Not some crazy fantasy land with a $2000 mortgage and $2000 daycare (despite 1 parent being stay at home)
  - Arizhel 10y ago
    >Normal employee copays for a famils are in the $200-$400 per month range. Completely wrong. Mine is about $850 for two people, no kids.
    - brianwawok 10y ago
      Total cost on the open market for that kind of plan is 1k - 1.2k, so your work basically has no health benefit? I have never had that experience...
      - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
        Yeah, my health insurance costs about $800/month before the employer portion, for two people, no preexisting conditions, no children.
      - st3v3r 10y ago
        The guy telling others how to live their life has no experience contrary to their own, and thus no empathy? Fancy that.
  - ashark 10y ago
    MMM's posts are all from the perspective of someone who: 1) has a paid off house, 2) has a lot of money in the bank, can get a job with benefits easily on short-ish notice and has no-one with chronic illnesses in his household (= incredibly low health insurance costs). He also gains all kinds of savings by not being dependent on a 9-5, like having enormous choice in housing location, lower transportation expenses, and so on. This is the end state of someone who's made it, and spending at that level's not realistic for a family that's still working, because their spending is necessarily much higher due to having fewer options to reduce costs. I like the general attitude of that blog, but after going on a reading binge of it a couple years ago I came away with the impression that it's subtly misleading and kinda scummy. Stuff like "how I thrive with no job (by already having a ton of money, and actually having 3 part-time jobs, one of which is getting you to click affiliate links on this very blog)", or "Why are you paying so much for health insurance, really guys, it's cheap (if you're in an exactly perfect life situation, what, are you not?)" Clickbaity humblebragging and condescending wankery mixed with good advice about frugality (some of which is actually useful to people who don't already have a ton of money in the bank), in service of making him money via one of his not-jobs. > Normal employee copays for a famils are in the $200-$400 per month range. No. Maybe for one person, not a family. Yes, there are companies that deliver great benefits on health care (I'm at one) but they're exceptional. $2000 seems high, but $200-400 is low by at least half.
- unit91 10y ago
  I think these are really inflated. I've got 5 kids, my wife doesn't work, and our expenses in the categories above are: $150/month for day care or camps or lessons or whatever... $500/month for health insurance for family [my portion, the company has a plan] $1500 month in rent or mortgage $1000/month in groceries That's just under $38,000 per year. I make more now, but we lived very comfortably when I made $80,000 per year (before tax).
  - sheeshkebab 10y ago
    Yes, completely overpriced relative to average costs across us - however these are real for major metro areas (ny, dc, sf, Boston etc). Unless you make $250k+/year there, it's not worth being in these areas.
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      The median family income for those metro areas is nowhere near $100k. I spot checked Boston and its $53,657.
    - laughfactory 10y ago
      Yep. I've got one word of advice: move!
- jane4ender 10y ago
  I am a 3rd year dev living on 70k income. Wife works >20 hrs part time. 2 kids. I live in the US between the Rocky and the Appalachian mountains where the cost of living is reasonable. Things are tight, but solid. $800/mo rent (4 bedroom house, .7 acres) $800/mo debt, 2 car payments $200/mo gas $500/mo savings $600/mo groceries $500/mo utilities, phone, internet, streaming $250/mo car, life insurance Not even at 50k a year for essential expenses. It's doable. At 100k I'd have pretty much no financial worries, and at 200k, I'd have better problems to worry about. :)
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  I honestly can't tell if you are being serous or not. $2,000/month entertainment is included in "bare one expenses to exist?" No. That's pretty extravagant. Sure, you are probably going to need 2 incomes if that's the kind of lifestyle you want but don't kid yourself its some sort of bare minimum. Growing up my family of five (three kids, two parents) somehow managed to live in a two bedroom apartment with one car and played in public parks and other public facilities for entertainment. We wore hand-me-downs and had little in terms of "stuff," we didn't have any room to store it anyways. I am much happier I grew up without excess toys/objects/items as most of our play was centered around imagination. Children are really good at entertaining themselves if left to their own devices. It also made me appreciate what I did have. Basically, I didn't grew up even remotely in squalor or anything like that. It would have been nice to have my own bedroom but it wasn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things. --- My family now has two incomes/jobs but only one car, we share a car ride to work, one drops the other off in the morning and picks them up in the evening. it's kinda annoying at times. I want to get a second car but every time I run the numbers in my head I can't justify the huge added expense just to alleviate a little bit of annoyance/inconvenience. So anyways, you can do with a lot less if you actually wanted to. "This is how much I spend" isn't the same thing as "this is how much I am required to spend."
  - sheeshkebab 10y ago
    $2000/month in camps/lessons/kids activities/afterschool care (far from entertainment).
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      camps = entertainment lessons = entertainment kids activities = entertainment None of those are some sort of bare bones living expenses. They are nice to haves if you can afford it. afterschool care = not required if one parent stays home or works a different shift.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
ashark 10y ago
There are no 50s-sized cheap houses within walking distance of employment centers in good school districts in my city. Out where the good schools are, they only build McMansions. This is the typical case for cities in the US. I live in a big-ass house in the 'burbs because a big-ass house in the 'burbs is cheaper than a smaller one still capable of (more or less) comfortably housing 2 adults + 3 kids in the city, plus private school for those three kids. It's not because I love McMansions and owning cars and being far from everything. As for entertainment spending (Netflix, cell phones, et c), it's nothing next to (especially) housing and (even cooked at home) food. Cutting all of that wouldn't get us down to a secure, responsible income level with only one parent working.
- Arizhel 10y ago
  The other problem is utility bills. These anti-big-house people complain how people don't need giant houses, but they completely ignore how horribly inefficient older houses are. It probably costs a lot less to heat and cool your McMansion than it would a 50-year-old house that's half the size. I really wish it were easy to find nice, well-built, efficient, modestly sized houses in neighborhoods where you don't have ex-cons living next to you, vicious dogs running loose, etc. That just doesn't seem to be the case.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    That seems suspect. How much does it cost to heat and cool a McMansion in dollars? I live in a 2000 square foot 75 year old house and my utilities are very reasonable.
    - hfsktr 10y ago
      When I lived at my grandmother's house (rented from her), the utility bill was almost as much as rent through the winter (I think the highest I saw was about $500 one month). The house is from like 1890 or whatever and they did add insulation and all but the heater was on a lot.
      - 10y ago
1_2__3 10y ago
Stop with the standard of living shaming. You're not convincing anyone and you're ignoring the fact that even if you adjust/account for that the issues being discussed here are the same. In other words you're just doing moral finger-wagging, not making a substantive argument.
- pc86 10y ago
  The substantive argument is that people spend a lot of money on things they don't need, then complain that they don't have the money to cut their hours and earn less money (if that's even an option). You're the one not making any substantive arguments by just calling it "shaming"
  - RUG3Y 10y ago
    Some people do, and a lot of other people are genuinely having a rough go.
Arizhel 10y ago
Absolutely wrong. No, you don't need $150 cable packages and $200 cellular packages. I don't have those myself. My cellphone bill with Ting is about $30/month for myself, and I got my 3-year-old phone on Ebay used. And no, you don't need a 4000sf home. But most people do want a decent home in a decent, low-crime neighborhood. The problem is that it's very hard to afford that on a single income, even after you cut out extravangances like $150 cable packages. The fundamental problem is that the rent is too damn high.
- brianwawok 10y ago
  Where do you live? You should move.
thex10 10y ago
Consider that the costs of those vehicles, communications devices, and shelter have increased much faster than wages have. But no, what you choose to take from that reality is "they need to be happy with less stuff"
- brianwawok 10y ago
  Why do you even need a motorized wheelchair, if you have 2 working legs? It doesn't matter how much something costs if you don't buy it.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  Well houses have been getting bigger at the same time families have been getting smaller. The living space per person has almost doubled since the 70s. https://www.aei.org/publication/todays-new-homes-are-1000-square-feet-larger-than-in-1973-and-the-living-space-per-person-has-doubled-over-last-40-years/ https://www.aei.org/publication/todays-new-homes-are-1000-sq...
watwut 10y ago
Place with good school, college debt and healthcare are way more expensive. Cable and cellphone packages are pretty much irrelevant.
RUG3Y 10y ago
I have: - 2 paid for cars, one has 200k miles on it and is sitting dead in the driveway. - a 1200 square foot house outside of town, not in a nice area. It's the cheapest house I could find and the only one I could afford. - Internet. - Cell phone. - No cable, no Netflix, very little dining out (always somewhere cheap) and no other debts other than mortgage. I have a decent income for the area I'm in, and still barely get by on a single income. I really don't understand how other people are making it. I'm either much worse off than I think or most people are just doing so much better.
laughfactory 10y ago
Which, I'll point out, would be a vast improvement for our environmental impact...

hnal943 10y ago

That's crazy. Almost every couple I know is single income, in order to better provide for the kids. It's not a requirement.

laughfactory 10y ago
That's how we roll, too. I don't know how dual-earners do it. When the hell do you pick up the house, clean, pay bills, spend time with each other? Seems like it'd be an incredibly hectic way to live life.