5 ms·

100x more powerful than the Visual Builder in VisualAge suite of products [1] and Dolphin Smalltalk's MVP-based tool and code browsers [2]? While those (along

by hboon 10y ago

100x more powerful than the Visual Builder in VisualAge suite of products [1] and Dolphin Smalltalk's MVP-based tool and code browsers [2]? While those (along with Delphi's VCL) are now a shadow of their past or completely defunct, I doubt anything comes close to them technically, let alone 100x more powerful than them. PS: I just missed that this is about Web development though. Will just leave the comment here for posterity. [1] http://www.edm2.com/index.php/VisualAge_for_Java_Professional http://www.edm2.com/index.php/VisualAge_for_Java_Professiona... [2] http://www.samadhiweb.com/blog/2015.12.31.dolphin.nbsqlite3.html http://www.samadhiweb.com/blog/2015.12.31.dolphin.nbsqlite3....

acqq 10y ago
Have you tried to use VAJava at that time (middle nineties of the previous century)? Or maybe you were involved in producing it, or simply like Smalltalk? "As mentioned before, VAJava is written in SmallTalk. As expected, the environment is not going to set any speed records for Java performance" "I used the JGL benchmarks to test the performance of the Java virtual machine. When running under VAJava, the benchmarks took significantly longer to run than they did under version 1.1.5 of Sun's JDK. Therefore, I would not recommend VAJava for testing applications which are primarily computational." I've tried something from VisualAge at that time and it was a pure catastrophe. My conclusion was that it was bought only by the enterprises who decided to force their developers to "use IBM" no matter what. Maybe VAJava was different?
- hboon 10y ago
  I only have experience with VA Smalltalk and VA Java. I used their WebSphere suite of products years later. > I've tried something from VisualAge at that time and it was a pure catastrophe. My conclusion was that it was bought only by the enterprises who decided to force their developers to "use IBM" no matter what. On the contrary, VAS and VAJ was one of the most non-IBM-like products, compared to say Rational Rose or Eclipse (ironically, Eclipse was supposed to be a descendent of VAJ) or WSAD which is built on it. > Maybe VAJava was different? VAJ is basically the Java language bolted on the Smalltalk paradigm - code browsers, workspace, method-level versioning, etc. Smalltalk is an acquired taste, so I can see how VAJ can be a turn off for some. > it was a pure catastrophe. Do you remember why it felt that way?
  - acqq 10y ago
    > Do you remember why it felt that way? Yes: I've really enjoyed using Turbo Pascal in eighties and earned for living developing using Borland products in the early nineties. I've received VA for C++ to evaluate its suitability. After I've installed it it crashed almost on every click, before I was able to even try something usable. Before it would crash, it would be also quite slow to do anything. In short, not comparable at all with the Borland feel I was spoiled with (remember, the OP here is about Delphi). I don't remember if I've tried it before or after the first (16-bit) Delphi. But I know that I was absolutely amazed with Delphi, and quite puzzled with VA C++ (not understanding how they approved the production of the CDs of something in that state). I understood that IBM favored OS/2 and I've tried it on the NT of that time, so, apart for the clumsiness of the interface (which simply didn't fit much with what I've expected an IDE should let me do easily) I've also assumed that they probably tested it only on OS/2 and have made the NT version just to say it exists. So I can't say it appeared better than Rational Rose which was also horrible, as far as I remember, more stable (as in not crashing that much), but again in my opinion unusable except for wasting time. The system on which I've tested was otherwise stable, the applications I've user regularly and the builds that lasted hours haven't crashed.
    - hboon 10y ago
      Ah, Ok. I have been wrong to mention the VA suite of products in my original comment. I have only used VAJ and VAS then. They were (IMO) truly great. VA C++ sounds horrible. Perhaps the other products in the VA suite sucks :) I used Delphi too, it was great. The VCL and the community/market around it was wonderful. I looked into BCB for a bit, but unfortunately never got to using it in anger.. Borland had a great run.
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      From your description I would assume you got to use the version where IBM tried to create a Smalltalk/Lisp Machine experience for C++, similar to Lucid's Energize C++, which was so resource demanding that IBM gave up on it. Nowadays we have Apple and Microsoft returning to the idea of using databases to model C++ on the IDEs.

by hboon 10y ago

acqq 10y ago

Have you tried to use VAJava at that time (middle nineties of the previous century)? Or maybe you were involved in producing it, or simply like Smalltalk? "As mentioned before, VAJava is written in SmallTalk. As expected, the environment is not going to set any speed records for Java performance" "I used the JGL benchmarks to test the performance of the Java virtual machine. When running under VAJava, the benchmarks took significantly longer to run than they did under version 1.1.5 of Sun's JDK. Therefore, I would not recommend VAJava for testing applications which are primarily computational." I've tried something from VisualAge at that time and it was a pure catastrophe. My conclusion was that it was bought only by the enterprises who decided to force their developers to "use IBM" no matter what. Maybe VAJava was different?

hboon 10y ago
I only have experience with VA Smalltalk and VA Java. I used their WebSphere suite of products years later. > I've tried something from VisualAge at that time and it was a pure catastrophe. My conclusion was that it was bought only by the enterprises who decided to force their developers to "use IBM" no matter what. On the contrary, VAS and VAJ was one of the most non-IBM-like products, compared to say Rational Rose or Eclipse (ironically, Eclipse was supposed to be a descendent of VAJ) or WSAD which is built on it. > Maybe VAJava was different? VAJ is basically the Java language bolted on the Smalltalk paradigm - code browsers, workspace, method-level versioning, etc. Smalltalk is an acquired taste, so I can see how VAJ can be a turn off for some. > it was a pure catastrophe. Do you remember why it felt that way?
- acqq 10y ago
  > Do you remember why it felt that way? Yes: I've really enjoyed using Turbo Pascal in eighties and earned for living developing using Borland products in the early nineties. I've received VA for C++ to evaluate its suitability. After I've installed it it crashed almost on every click, before I was able to even try something usable. Before it would crash, it would be also quite slow to do anything. In short, not comparable at all with the Borland feel I was spoiled with (remember, the OP here is about Delphi). I don't remember if I've tried it before or after the first (16-bit) Delphi. But I know that I was absolutely amazed with Delphi, and quite puzzled with VA C++ (not understanding how they approved the production of the CDs of something in that state). I understood that IBM favored OS/2 and I've tried it on the NT of that time, so, apart for the clumsiness of the interface (which simply didn't fit much with what I've expected an IDE should let me do easily) I've also assumed that they probably tested it only on OS/2 and have made the NT version just to say it exists. So I can't say it appeared better than Rational Rose which was also horrible, as far as I remember, more stable (as in not crashing that much), but again in my opinion unusable except for wasting time. The system on which I've tested was otherwise stable, the applications I've user regularly and the builds that lasted hours haven't crashed.
  - hboon 10y ago
    Ah, Ok. I have been wrong to mention the VA suite of products in my original comment. I have only used VAJ and VAS then. They were (IMO) truly great. VA C++ sounds horrible. Perhaps the other products in the VA suite sucks :) I used Delphi too, it was great. The VCL and the community/market around it was wonderful. I looked into BCB for a bit, but unfortunately never got to using it in anger.. Borland had a great run.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    From your description I would assume you got to use the version where IBM tried to create a Smalltalk/Lisp Machine experience for C++, similar to Lucid's Energize C++, which was so resource demanding that IBM gave up on it. Nowadays we have Apple and Microsoft returning to the idea of using databases to model C++ on the IDEs.