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I think the bottom line is that some founders believe that you have to tolerate abusive personalities in order to hire the best. I had a person on my team once

I think the bottom line is that some founders believe that you have to tolerate abusive personalities in order to hire the best. I had a person on my team once who I did not hire but who had a reputation for being one of the smartest and most capable engineers. As his new manager, I expected that I'd soon promote him. But then I saw that he treated others on the team very poorly and often said highly inappropriate sexual things. I talked to the founder and was told that he's really a great guy, etc. As it got worse I mentioned the pattern to HR, and HR was initially concerned, but then after HR met with the founder it was as if I was imagining the problem. I tell this story simply to point out that the same culture that tolerates bullies and harassment can happen even when there is a female founder. I know it's a cliche that bullies are always deeply insecure. I think that is the case for workplace bullies too. The brash, over-confident, aggressive act that these people put on works to help them find out who they can victimize. Others who interact less closely often perceive people (particularly engineers) who have a brash, confident attitude as being smart and capable. Just because someone quickly points the finger and shoots down other peoples' ideas doesn't mean his/her ideas are smart :) I don't think bullies can thrive in a healthy workplace culture. There should not be any question that certain behavior is inappropriate and is grounds for a stern warning (or worse). But once this doesn't happen, a sort of law of the jungle emerges and bullies and exploiters can take over. The more information that comes out about Uber's culture, I think Travis probably needs to go.

leroy_masochist 10y ago
> I think the bottom line is that some founders believe that you have to tolerate abusive personalities in order to hire the best. Based on anecdotal experience I think this is quite true. It's almost like the dark side of the Taleb chapter that was on HN the other day...just as Taleb trusts the disheveled butcher-looking doctor more than the elegant and refined one because the fact that the unkempt one has made it this far without looking like a professional underscores his actual professional skill[0], it really seems to me that some founders/senior execs instinctively prefer hiring assholes, because assholes must be really good at what they do -- look at how far they've come despite being an asshole! [0]: https://medium.com/incerto/surgeons-should-notlook-like-surgeons-23b0e2cf6d52#.ps8sxy110 https://medium.com/incerto/surgeons-should-notlook-like-surg...
metaphorm 10y ago
I think the bottom line is that some founders ARE abusive personalities and hire people like themselves.
iamcasen 10y ago
I'll be real with you. I worked at Uber for a while. I never noticed any sexual harassment while I was there, but what I did notice was that the company culture was quite excellent until the number of employees got up to 1000 or so. It wasn't until there were many layers of management that things got shitty. I left once the culture no longer felt friendly. I haven't spoken to Travis in quite a few years now, but I find it very hard to believe he is responsible. Shitty, evil, manages are great at being two-faced. When their boss is around they act one way, but you better watch out when no one is looking.
- kevinchen 10y ago
  No. There is simply no excuse for this kind of abusive environment to exist at your company. If you are CEO, you are responsible: - Kalanick doesn't interact with every employee every day like the olden days, but he certainly hired the people who do (directly or indirectly). - Greenshift is a real problem, but it's not like the management chain is the only way a CEO can find out about problems. And nobody's saying that Kalanick is telling his execs that it's OK to harass employees. In my mind, he is responsible and culpable even if he simply turns a blind eye when harassment happens.
- grandalf 10y ago
  Thanks for sharing your experience.
acdha 10y ago
> I don't think bullies can thrive in a healthy workplace culture This part is really key: a single incident, sure, perhaps that's a bad hire but if it's not directly and completely rejected by senior management they're sending a message that anything goes as long as you get results / have the right friends. That doesn't even mean explicitly condoning something – merely allowing it to continue is enough.
bbarn 10y ago
> I know it's a cliche that bullies are always deeply insecure. I think that is the case for workplace bullies too. The brash, over-confident, aggressive act that these people put on works to help them find out who they can victimize. I just don't agree with this thinking. Thinking that insecurity drives aggression ignores the simple fact that aggression is aggression. It's applying a victim card on top of asshole behavior.
- grandalf 10y ago
  > It's applying a victim card on top of asshole behavior. Well, we're all in a sense victims of what our environment did to our tabula rasa to make us who we are (for better and worse). All humans have flaws (insecurity among them). Mistreating others is never an excusable way to conduct ourselves. I do not intend to give anyone a pass. FYI I think it's necessary to point out that brash behavior can have its origin in insecurity, since many seem to assume it has its origin in competence and frustration with others' incompetence.

leroy_masochist 10y ago

> I think the bottom line is that some founders believe that you have to tolerate abusive personalities in order to hire the best. Based on anecdotal experience I think this is quite true. It's almost like the dark side of the Taleb chapter that was on HN the other day...just as Taleb trusts the disheveled butcher-looking doctor more than the elegant and refined one because the fact that the unkempt one has made it this far without looking like a professional underscores his actual professional skill[0], it really seems to me that some founders/senior execs instinctively prefer hiring assholes, because assholes must be really good at what they do -- look at how far they've come despite being an asshole! [0]: https://medium.com/incerto/surgeons-should-notlook-like-surgeons-23b0e2cf6d52#.ps8sxy110 https://medium.com/incerto/surgeons-should-notlook-like-surg...

metaphorm 10y ago

I think the bottom line is that some founders ARE abusive personalities and hire people like themselves.

iamcasen 10y ago

I'll be real with you. I worked at Uber for a while. I never noticed any sexual harassment while I was there, but what I did notice was that the company culture was quite excellent until the number of employees got up to 1000 or so. It wasn't until there were many layers of management that things got shitty. I left once the culture no longer felt friendly. I haven't spoken to Travis in quite a few years now, but I find it very hard to believe he is responsible. Shitty, evil, manages are great at being two-faced. When their boss is around they act one way, but you better watch out when no one is looking.

kevinchen 10y ago
No. There is simply no excuse for this kind of abusive environment to exist at your company. If you are CEO, you are responsible: - Kalanick doesn't interact with every employee every day like the olden days, but he certainly hired the people who do (directly or indirectly). - Greenshift is a real problem, but it's not like the management chain is the only way a CEO can find out about problems. And nobody's saying that Kalanick is telling his execs that it's OK to harass employees. In my mind, he is responsible and culpable even if he simply turns a blind eye when harassment happens.
grandalf 10y ago
Thanks for sharing your experience.

acdha 10y ago

> I don't think bullies can thrive in a healthy workplace culture This part is really key: a single incident, sure, perhaps that's a bad hire but if it's not directly and completely rejected by senior management they're sending a message that anything goes as long as you get results / have the right friends. That doesn't even mean explicitly condoning something – merely allowing it to continue is enough.

bbarn 10y ago

> I know it's a cliche that bullies are always deeply insecure. I think that is the case for workplace bullies too. The brash, over-confident, aggressive act that these people put on works to help them find out who they can victimize. I just don't agree with this thinking. Thinking that insecurity drives aggression ignores the simple fact that aggression is aggression. It's applying a victim card on top of asshole behavior.

grandalf 10y ago
> It's applying a victim card on top of asshole behavior. Well, we're all in a sense victims of what our environment did to our tabula rasa to make us who we are (for better and worse). All humans have flaws (insecurity among them). Mistreating others is never an excusable way to conduct ourselves. I do not intend to give anyone a pass. FYI I think it's necessary to point out that brash behavior can have its origin in insecurity, since many seem to assume it has its origin in competence and frustration with others' incompetence.