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What specifically is the move forward here, though? I suppose hn as a community has the power to boycott applying to the company, but how else can we drive inte

What specifically is the move forward here, though? I suppose hn as a community has the power to boycott applying to the company, but how else can we drive internal change from an external position? Uninstalling the app and simply choosing to use a competitor's services are another option, but sapping the entire organization of revenue seems like it would hurt drivers and developers at least as much as management, if not more so. Do you think this merits organized public protest? Is the average Uber user aware of the issues/incensed enough to actually take to the streets? Obviously I'd like to see a change, but I'm struggling with how best to actually make this happen.

hsod 10y ago
Consumer action like boycotts and social media posting is nice, but I think the solution to this problem is lawsuits. Victims can seek redress through the courts, which both compensates them and holds the company directly to account for their actions. For a lot of reasons participating in lawsuits is challenging for the victims, and I am in no way criticizing any individual for not going through all of that. I just think that really making an impact is going to require more than a few hundred app deletions and some bad PR.
- mirimir 10y ago
  How about a class action? Lois E. Jenson v. Eveleth Taconite Co. Jock v. Sterling Jewelers Inc.
Arizhel 10y ago
The drivers aren't going to be hurt; half of them are already working for Lyft anyway (they have two phones, one for each service), so the rest will just move to the competition if Uber goes under, and they'll probably be better off for it anyway. Same goes for the developers; there's no shortage of jobs in Silicon Valley. There is no way to change a company's internal culture from outside. The only thing you can do is punish it.
st3v3r 10y ago
This is kinda like saying, "We should never punish a company for wrongdoing, because they'll pass that on to customers and employees." It doesn't really hold water.
_yosefk 10y ago
OK Cupid blocked Firefox, a non-profit with less questionable business practices than most tech companies and certainly Uber, over Eich's quiet private donation which ought to be a smaller deal than systematic sexual harassment with consequences for victims instead of perpetrators (although the donation was proven while the harassment is alleged; I doubt this tips the scales of public sentiment though.) The overall reaction on HN was mostly positive. I'm sure an Uber boycott can be figured out. (Is it a good idea? I dunno, in Eich's case the question is different from this case and there's much to discuss, I'm just saying that people these days are fairly eager to boycott and fairly good at it once the proper mood sets in.)
- vacri 10y ago
  OK Cupid behaved poorly in that matter - after getting what they wanted (Eich resigning), they didn't act to resolve the reputational damage they'd done. All too quick to pop up a message saying "mozilla is the devil"[1], but afterwards, no message saying "okay, the situation has been resolved in our favour, you should go back and try it out". I lost a lot of respect towards the site from that. [1] despite gay and lesbian developers coming out and saying that Eich's personal opinions on the issue didn't translate to company culture and they felt a positive atmosphere working there.
- Justsignedup 10y ago
  an interesting debate. if i build my company on abuse and shady tactics, but i now employ 10,000 employees, is it okay to let me get away with it because so many depend on me? This is the too-big-to-fail issue.
  - CaptainZapp 10y ago
    This whole too-big-to-fail reasoning really galls me. When a company is too big to fail it means that if it fails there's a systemic risk for an entire economy. Banks (and it's mostly banks), which are too big to fail are so interewoven with other banks, multinational companies and the economy as a whole that a failure can bring other institutions to the brink of exctinction and by extension wreck havoc on the entire economy. Thousands of people out of a job does not mean too big to fail. No more being able to hail an Uber may be inconvenient, but it's no systemic risk to the economy. Look at Enron. They had north of 20'000 employees when they imploded. And they where in a far more critical sector of the economy than Uber can ever dream to be. While it was brutal for the employees (who partially lost their life savings) and while I think there should be a special place in hell for the responsible executives Enron's demise had hardly any effects on the economy as a whole. I'm not jumping on you personally. It's just that this too-big-to-fail nonsense in combination with Uber is thrown around an awful lot recently. And it's utter bullshit.
ForHackernews 10y ago
> sapping the entire organization of revenue seems like it would hurt drivers and developers at least as much as management, if not more so. Drivers can easily move to Lyft or other competitors (at least in markets where Lyft is active). In fact, I would venture that most drivers already drive for both Lyft and Uber. Developers can (and should) look for jobs at other companies.
elsewhen 10y ago
i think public pressure of the board of directors is the right approach here: Shervin Pishevar, John Gurley, David Bonderman, David Drummond, Arianna Huffington, Garrett Camp, Ryan Graves some of these people have reputations that are worth more than their stake in uber. the desire to uphold their reputations may be enough to get them to truly act on this matter.
- CydeWeys 10y ago
  At this point, the ouster of Kalanick is the only blood sacrifice that would be sufficient. The rot goes all the way up to the CEO.

hsod 10y ago

Consumer action like boycotts and social media posting is nice, but I think the solution to this problem is lawsuits. Victims can seek redress through the courts, which both compensates them and holds the company directly to account for their actions. For a lot of reasons participating in lawsuits is challenging for the victims, and I am in no way criticizing any individual for not going through all of that. I just think that really making an impact is going to require more than a few hundred app deletions and some bad PR.

mirimir 10y ago
How about a class action? Lois E. Jenson v. Eveleth Taconite Co. Jock v. Sterling Jewelers Inc.

Arizhel 10y ago

The drivers aren't going to be hurt; half of them are already working for Lyft anyway (they have two phones, one for each service), so the rest will just move to the competition if Uber goes under, and they'll probably be better off for it anyway. Same goes for the developers; there's no shortage of jobs in Silicon Valley. There is no way to change a company's internal culture from outside. The only thing you can do is punish it.

st3v3r 10y ago

This is kinda like saying, "We should never punish a company for wrongdoing, because they'll pass that on to customers and employees." It doesn't really hold water.

_yosefk 10y ago

OK Cupid blocked Firefox, a non-profit with less questionable business practices than most tech companies and certainly Uber, over Eich's quiet private donation which ought to be a smaller deal than systematic sexual harassment with consequences for victims instead of perpetrators (although the donation was proven while the harassment is alleged; I doubt this tips the scales of public sentiment though.) The overall reaction on HN was mostly positive. I'm sure an Uber boycott can be figured out. (Is it a good idea? I dunno, in Eich's case the question is different from this case and there's much to discuss, I'm just saying that people these days are fairly eager to boycott and fairly good at it once the proper mood sets in.)

vacri 10y ago
OK Cupid behaved poorly in that matter - after getting what they wanted (Eich resigning), they didn't act to resolve the reputational damage they'd done. All too quick to pop up a message saying "mozilla is the devil"[1], but afterwards, no message saying "okay, the situation has been resolved in our favour, you should go back and try it out". I lost a lot of respect towards the site from that. [1] despite gay and lesbian developers coming out and saying that Eich's personal opinions on the issue didn't translate to company culture and they felt a positive atmosphere working there.
Justsignedup 10y ago
an interesting debate. if i build my company on abuse and shady tactics, but i now employ 10,000 employees, is it okay to let me get away with it because so many depend on me? This is the too-big-to-fail issue.
- CaptainZapp 10y ago
  This whole too-big-to-fail reasoning really galls me. When a company is too big to fail it means that if it fails there's a systemic risk for an entire economy. Banks (and it's mostly banks), which are too big to fail are so interewoven with other banks, multinational companies and the economy as a whole that a failure can bring other institutions to the brink of exctinction and by extension wreck havoc on the entire economy. Thousands of people out of a job does not mean too big to fail. No more being able to hail an Uber may be inconvenient, but it's no systemic risk to the economy. Look at Enron. They had north of 20'000 employees when they imploded. And they where in a far more critical sector of the economy than Uber can ever dream to be. While it was brutal for the employees (who partially lost their life savings) and while I think there should be a special place in hell for the responsible executives Enron's demise had hardly any effects on the economy as a whole. I'm not jumping on you personally. It's just that this too-big-to-fail nonsense in combination with Uber is thrown around an awful lot recently. And it's utter bullshit.

ForHackernews 10y ago

> sapping the entire organization of revenue seems like it would hurt drivers and developers at least as much as management, if not more so. Drivers can easily move to Lyft or other competitors (at least in markets where Lyft is active). In fact, I would venture that most drivers already drive for both Lyft and Uber. Developers can (and should) look for jobs at other companies.

elsewhen 10y ago

i think public pressure of the board of directors is the right approach here: Shervin Pishevar, John Gurley, David Bonderman, David Drummond, Arianna Huffington, Garrett Camp, Ryan Graves some of these people have reputations that are worth more than their stake in uber. the desire to uphold their reputations may be enough to get them to truly act on this matter.

CydeWeys 10y ago
At this point, the ouster of Kalanick is the only blood sacrifice that would be sufficient. The rot goes all the way up to the CEO.