8 ms·

I'm a big fan of rail. I wish we had a bullet train going from E to W coast through Kansas City. I would happily pay more taxes for it. The thing for me is ive

by X86BSD 10y ago

I'm a big fan of rail. I wish we had a bullet train going from E to W coast through Kansas City. I would happily pay more taxes for it. The thing for me is ive never understood why the cost per mile is so freaking outrageously stupidly full retard high for rail. Road doesn't cost nearly as much. Is it the material? Labor? There isn't much material per mile. Why is it so high per mile? Who has done extensive looking into this and can explain it?

adrianN 10y ago
The track side equipment is really expensive and there is little competition in the rail-space. Everything is regulated to death and only huge companies have a chance. So you have maybe two or three companies who can bid.
JumpCrisscross 10y ago
> I'm a big fan of rail. I wish we had a bullet train going from E to W coast through Kansas City. I would happily pay more taxes for it. You're in the "people who like rail" camp. So are many of my friends. (I'm the lonely S.O.B. in both.) > Why is [our cost] so high per mile? On why rail is so much more expensive here, we don't know [1]. "Many of the world's most expensive projects are in the United Kingdom, Australia, and New Zealand, which, like the United States, have common-law systems," [2] so it might be that right-of-way costs dominate. New York's MTA costs $4.11 per ride to operate [3]. The analogs for London and Paris are $2.61 and $1.93, respectively [2]. The cost difference appears to be explained by unnecessarily higher staffing levels in New York. So it might be that public-sector union and well-paid contractor costs dominate. Measuring these things is hard, perhaps intentionally so. [1] http://www.realclearpolicy.com/blog/2015/03/31/high_costs_may_explain_crumbling_support_for_us_infrastructure_1249.html http://www.realclearpolicy.com/blog/2015/03/31/high_costs_ma... [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-04-08/why-u-s-infrastructure-costs-so-much https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-04-08/why-u-s-i... [3] https://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys-New-Yorks-MTA-debt-profile-governmental-support-distinguish-it--PR_345455 https://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys-New-Yorks-MTA-debt-pr...
kposehn 10y ago
It's a ton of stuff rolled in to one. First, regular railbed isn't nearly as hard to build because the standards are much lower. When you're building for 70mph max freight you have a totally different need than 186mph+ HSR. For example, HSR uses a high alignment specification. This means a great deal of effort goes into ensuring that there are as few variations in the alignment as possible to ensure it is stable. You also have cost of catenary (overhead wires), cost of bridges, tunnels and grading for a much straighter tangent and finally all the electrical and signaling infrastructure behind it. (Note that the signals are in-cab signals but modern systems such as those from GE/Alstom or Siemens still require lineside equipment.
- gozur88 10y ago
  You have a lot more route flexibility with standard rail as well, since the track doesn't have to be as straight. This is going to translate into lower site acquisition costs. I agree with OP, though - even taking that all into account it seems like we're getting soaked.
rpeden 10y ago
I'm not an expert, but I've looked into this in the past when I was curious about it. There's quite a bit of working that goes into preparing and grading the land. There's also the added expense of building bridges and tunnels - with the speed a bullet train is travelling at, you want to avoid at-grade level crossings where road vehicles could get into the train's path. You also probably want side barriers to prevent cows and other large animals from wandering onto the tracks. This means you'll also need game tunnels or bridges to enable animals to get cross under or over the tracks, especially in wilderness areas. The Wikipedia article about TGV track construction [1] provides some helpful information[1]. Acquiring the land to build the track might also be expensive. Although governments have some power to expropriate land, there's often (usually?) significant cost involved. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_track_construction#Preparing_the_trackbed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_track_construction#Prepari...
avn2109 10y ago
>> "Why is it so high per mile?" Our society is afflicted by Baumol's cost disease :( See e.g. https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost-disease/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost...

by X86BSD 10y ago

adrianN 10y ago

The track side equipment is really expensive and there is little competition in the rail-space. Everything is regulated to death and only huge companies have a chance. So you have maybe two or three companies who can bid.

JumpCrisscross 10y ago

> I'm a big fan of rail. I wish we had a bullet train going from E to W coast through Kansas City. I would happily pay more taxes for it. You're in the "people who like rail" camp. So are many of my friends. (I'm the lonely S.O.B. in both.) > Why is [our cost] so high per mile? On why rail is so much more expensive here, we don't know [1]. "Many of the world's most expensive projects are in the United Kingdom, Australia, and New Zealand, which, like the United States, have common-law systems," [2] so it might be that right-of-way costs dominate. New York's MTA costs $4.11 per ride to operate [3]. The analogs for London and Paris are $2.61 and $1.93, respectively [2]. The cost difference appears to be explained by unnecessarily higher staffing levels in New York. So it might be that public-sector union and well-paid contractor costs dominate. Measuring these things is hard, perhaps intentionally so. [1] http://www.realclearpolicy.com/blog/2015/03/31/high_costs_may_explain_crumbling_support_for_us_infrastructure_1249.html http://www.realclearpolicy.com/blog/2015/03/31/high_costs_ma... [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-04-08/why-u-s-infrastructure-costs-so-much https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-04-08/why-u-s-i... [3] https://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys-New-Yorks-MTA-debt-profile-governmental-support-distinguish-it--PR_345455 https://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys-New-Yorks-MTA-debt-pr...

kposehn 10y ago

It's a ton of stuff rolled in to one. First, regular railbed isn't nearly as hard to build because the standards are much lower. When you're building for 70mph max freight you have a totally different need than 186mph+ HSR. For example, HSR uses a high alignment specification. This means a great deal of effort goes into ensuring that there are as few variations in the alignment as possible to ensure it is stable. You also have cost of catenary (overhead wires), cost of bridges, tunnels and grading for a much straighter tangent and finally all the electrical and signaling infrastructure behind it. (Note that the signals are in-cab signals but modern systems such as those from GE/Alstom or Siemens still require lineside equipment.

gozur88 10y ago
You have a lot more route flexibility with standard rail as well, since the track doesn't have to be as straight. This is going to translate into lower site acquisition costs. I agree with OP, though - even taking that all into account it seems like we're getting soaked.

rpeden 10y ago

I'm not an expert, but I've looked into this in the past when I was curious about it. There's quite a bit of working that goes into preparing and grading the land. There's also the added expense of building bridges and tunnels - with the speed a bullet train is travelling at, you want to avoid at-grade level crossings where road vehicles could get into the train's path. You also probably want side barriers to prevent cows and other large animals from wandering onto the tracks. This means you'll also need game tunnels or bridges to enable animals to get cross under or over the tracks, especially in wilderness areas. The Wikipedia article about TGV track construction [1] provides some helpful information[1]. Acquiring the land to build the track might also be expensive. Although governments have some power to expropriate land, there's often (usually?) significant cost involved. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_track_construction#Preparing_the_trackbed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_track_construction#Prepari...

avn2109 10y ago

>> "Why is it so high per mile?" Our society is afflicted by Baumol's cost disease :( See e.g. https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost-disease/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost...