9 ms·

UK government considering a “cut-off date” for EU citizens’ rights to residency

126 points by jaoued 10y ago

toyg 10y ago
It makes sense, I don't think anyone could realistically expect anything different. Considering it's basically a starting negotiating position, it's actually pretty good from my perspective (EU national who has formally been granted permanent residency by exercising his treaty rights). Obviously the devil is in the details, i.e. what it will mean exactly "after the cutoff date": if one has lived in UK long enough to qualify for treaty-rights but never actually exercised them formally before the cutoff, can he still do it after that date? That's the situation most people are likely in, at the moment. A reasonable government would answer yes, of course, but recent news seem to indicate they are looking for any excuse to kick people out, so it's not a given. If you are an EU citizen living in UK, you should absolutely ask to exercise your rights TODAY; do not delay, do not trust news reports, it's just a bit of bureaucracy but could make a big difference in your future. Make sure you send documents as recorded delivery and track each and every date. If you are an EU citizen looking to move to the UK: just don't. This country has decided they don't need you and me, they don't deserve our labour, our ideas and our taxes.
- barrkel 10y ago
  My perspective is a little bit different. If they want to kick me out, I'll go somewhere else. I am Irish; the probability is high that my nationality will be treated differently owing to history. But if they want me to ask to stay, they can go fuck themselves.
  - toyg 10y ago
    I agree with your attitude in the long run (and am looking to move out myself), but in the immediate I think it's important for people to prepare so that they are not arbitrarily pressured into making immediate choices. Say you own a house, and the government says you don't have a right to live here anymore; you'll likely sell that house at a low price as you rush to relocate. History is full of this sort of profiteering following forced exodus (Spanish Jews, German Jews, Turkish Greeks and so on). If a bit if bureaucracy can save you from that, I think it's smart to do it.
    - a3n 10y ago
      > (Spanish Jews, German Jews, Turkish Greeks and so on) And many more; as an American it immediately brings to mind WWII Japanese internment. Businesses and homes lost to pressure and profiteering as people were ripped out of society and dropped in open-air prisons.
  - farbrortumm 10y ago
    "If they want me to ask to stay, they can go fuck themselves." Swede living in London here. I've got exactly the same opinion.
    - kawsper 10y ago
      Dane living in Nottingham here, I feel the exact same way. I am working remote, so my job moves with me, and it might be back home, hopefully with my british girlfriend :) but I fear the future, and how much bureaucracy we will face.
      - rolandino 10y ago
        UK person living in London. Feel the same. And I'm a UK citizen. If all goes as plans, the UK will become some weird, inward looking backwater, with crap schools, health service - unless you're v rich.
      - yread 10y ago
        Spoken like a true Viking: take their gold AND their wenches!
  - alecco 10y ago
    > If they want to kick me out Did the article? This is about a cutoff date to stop a wave of last minute immigrants. Nothing about expelling current ones. Don't let clickbait headlines make you angry.
    - kbart 10y ago
      "Nothing about expelling current ones. " Don't be so sure about that: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/26/grandmother-deported-from-uk-despite-being-married-to-briton-for-27-years https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/26/grandmother-...
      - MLR 10y ago
        This case is completely unrelated to the rights of EU citizens to live and work in the UK.
        kbart 10y ago
        While slightly different laws may apply, it clearly shows the attitude of UK's officials.
        Anderkent 10y ago
        For now. Presumably even if you were here for >5 years now as an EU citizen, if you went to europe for >2 years, you wouldn't be allowed in, the same as this lady.
    - ascorbic 10y ago
      They probably won't be expelling anyone, but the UK government has explicitly said that they'll use the rights of EU citizens in the UK as a bargaining chip, so if I were an EU citizen in the UK I'd be worried.
      - gadders 10y ago
        They've explicitly said they don't want to use them as a bargaining chip, but would be foolish to give it up uniliaterally.
  - raverbashing 10y ago
    > I am Irish; the probability is high that my nationality will be treated differently owing to history Yes, I think you're allowed to stay.
    - CalRobert 10y ago
      Based on what exactly? If you have sources to cite there are many interested people. So far we've a general feeling of "people have been moving between these two countries freely since decades before the EU existed so they couldn't stop that... could they?" - could they? Then again, isn't the EU supposed to bargain as a block? Any firm comment on this by a party in a position to influence policy would be received with great interest.
      - pjc50 10y ago
        Ireland is a special case; the Ireland Act 1949 provides that "Ireland is not a foreign country", and the Good Friday Agreement requires an open border between Eire and NI. Like everything else, this is now subject to uncertainty. http://irishpost.co.uk/irish-government-attempts-calm-citizens-uk-ministers-refuse-guarantee-eu-nationals-rights-remain/ http://irishpost.co.uk/irish-government-attempts-calm-citize... (The possibility of NI rejoining Éire has now moved from "unthinkable" to "maybe". If a border gets imposed as part of Brexit that moves to "likely")
        ascorbic 10y ago
        There hasn't been a word from the UK government about how this could be achieved. There seems to be no realistic way to retain an open border with the Republic of Ireland while not having an open border with the rest of the EU. The mythical Romanian could just fly to Dublin, drive to NI and catch a ferry. The only solution that I can see is to move the border to the North Sea. An open border with the Republic, but border controls between NI and GB. I imagine that will go down like a cup of cold sick with a good proportion of the population of NI.
        pjc50 10y ago
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - MLR 10y ago
    Irish citizens in the UK hold a more favourable status than EU citizens as is, the likelyhood of this changing is practically nil.
- jaimebuelta 10y ago
  It doesn't make sense at all. Until the end of the two years of the Article 50 negotiation (or before, if both the EU and the UK agree), the UK is a full member of the EU, with all the obligations that this entitles. That includes the right to live and work of citizens of other EU countries. Restricting that unilaterally is a gross violation of the treaties.
  - dovdovdov 10y ago
    Yeah, many things seem kinda bogus regarding this mess, even the PM herself.
  - hackerboos 10y ago
    They're not violating the treaties, they are saying if EU citizens come after a certain date then their residency is not guaranteed. EU citizens will be free to come right up until the UK exits the EU but those that came after said date will likely have to apply for visas. Those before will keep residency.
- dan1234 10y ago
  > If you are an EU citizen looking to move to the UK: just don't. This country has decided they don't need you and me, they don't deserve our labour, our ideas and our taxes. Well, 52% of the people who voted kinda, sorta said that. The rest of us are just being dragged along at the moment.
- yandie 10y ago
  > If you are an EU citizen living in UK, you should absolutely ask to exercise your rights TODAY; do not delay, do not trust news reports, it's just a bit of bureaucracy but could make a big difference in your future. Make sure you send documents as recorded delivery and track each and every date. Apparently my Dutch friend who has a PhD funded by the UK government can't apply for permanent residency because she doesn't earn enough to meet the £35k minimum earning set by the UK government. She's been here for almost 8 years. She's lucky that she's getting married and her now-fiance earns enough to make her qualify for spousal visa, but I know tons of others who are not so lucky.
  - toyg 10y ago
    That's wrong, the 35k threshold is for non-EU people only. I dearly hope she wasn't willingly misinformed by civil servants.
    - phillc73 10y ago
      And I am pretty sure it isn't 35k, more like £18,600 without children. Nonetheless, any amount above £0 makes my life a misery. I'm British living in another EU country, with my non-EU spouse and British son. Who knows how my situation will resolve itself. This article holds out some olive branch of the offer of EU citizenship for people in my situation. However, let's play the hypothetical situation that I am forced to leave due to negotiation breakdowns or whatever. I return to the UK, right? Unfortunately, my wife can't join me until I already earn above about a £22k threshold (additional for child). It isn't that I don't believe I can earn that amount, it is the elapsed time and enforced separation. Maybe it takes me a couple of months to find a job, it will then probably take several months for my wife's Visa application to be processed (she's already randomly had one visitor visa application denied, which we appealed against and won, but it was a 12 month process). And what's her status in our current EU country of residence if I have returned to the UK? It's all a big old mess for those of us exercising our EU treaty rights.
  - vilmosi 10y ago
    Your Dutch friend is misinformed. She doesn't need any earnings to apply for permanent residency (talking from experience).
- _yosefk 10y ago
  "This country has decided they don't need you and me, they don't deserve our labour, our ideas and our taxes." What about an EU citizen deciding to move to the US, Canada, Australia, Brazil or India? These countries were never in the EU. Did they therefore decide they don't need EU citizens? If not, why is the UK after it exits from the EU necessarily a less welcoming place for EU citizens than other non-EU countries?
  - pavlov 10y ago
    The United States is not a welcoming place for EU citizens. Immigration is strictly limited, the procedures expensive and time-consuming. If that's the bar for the UK government, the grandparent poster is right: it's not going to be worth even looking at Britain. To put it another way: if working in London, New York and San Francisco are going to be equally difficult to arrange, I'm not sure why anyone would prefer London. Housing is as expensive as NY or SF, yet wages are much lower. The weather isn't great either.
    - _yosefk 10y ago
      These can be valid points for some, and carry less weight for others (say, if you live in Paris and are offered a good job in London, and they help you deal with the visa stuff, for most it's probably also nice to be able to visit Paris much more easily than you could from NY or SF.) At any rate, "not sure why anyone would prefer London with the post-EU laws" is very different from "they decided they don't want me because they're not in the EU (even though there might be an otherwise nicely sounding arrangement available for me)."
      - Symbiote 10y ago
        > if you live in Paris and are offered a good job in London, and they help you deal with the visa stuff Note that the freedom of movement in the EU means there isn't any "visa stuff" to deal with. An EU citizen moving to the UK needs to fill in a form, to get a "National Insurance" number. The same would be required of a British citizen that didn't have one, for example if they'd been born and lived overseas before moving to the UK. There are no other requirements that don't also apply to British / resident people moving within the UK.
- alecco 10y ago
  > If you are an EU citizen looking to move to the UK: just don't I call BS on that. UK is quite open to LEGAL worker immigration from anywhere around the world. What's the big deal? I worked in UK for years and I'm not EU. Many Americans, Asians, Australians, etc. go through these channels without issue. After a few years they give you residentship. And shortly after that they give you citizenship. It's crazy how this is all made to sound like UK is going to become Cuba or something. ALARMIST NONSENSE by radicalization and willful ignorance.
  - mdekkers 10y ago
    UK is quite open to LEGAL worker immigration from anywhere around the world. lol, no it isn't - legal immigration from the EU is the main pillar of Brexit: "Stop all these people coming to live in our country."
  - jcranmer 10y ago
    Didn't the Conservatives campaign in the last election about bringing legal immigration numbers down to <100K/year?
    - MLR 10y ago
      Net migration, if you discount returning British citizens it currently sits at around 200,000 a year (500,000 gross), so it would be an approximate 20% reduction in non-British immigration. Or a 30% increase in emigration, but I doubt they're aiming for that.
  - Anderkent 10y ago
    It's a simple distinction: 1. You want to come work in London? Fill out all these forms, pay fees, prove that you're going to be useful, and we might allow you to stay 2. You want to come work in Berlin? Sure, come along. Do you see how the latter makes you feel much more welcome?
- Symbiote 10y ago
  > It makes sense, I don't think anyone could realistically expect anything different I might not expect it, but I do hope that a country that prides itself on the rule of law, and the historic influence it had in the world, would not break the terms of an international treaty. > it's actually pretty good from my perspective Are you familiar with the British expression, "I'm all right, Jack"? > exercise your rights TODAY ... it's just a bit of bureaucracy Ah, the 85 page form with the £65 fee, which many of my friends are worried they'll not be able to fill in correctly -- especially after all the stories in the British press of the long-term residents whose applications were rejected. For comparison, the Danish form for permanent residency has 6 pages in English (and 6 in Danish, it's bilingual), no fee, and only requires copies of the last few tax returns and a current job contract. Unfortunately, even if Britain remains in the UK until, say, 31 March 2019, I'll still be a few months short of the 5 year requirement.
- lukasm 10y ago
  It seems the only way to execute your rights is to apply for residency and that requires 5 years.
alecco 10y ago
It's sad how even the Independent is now taken by misleading headlines. They are considering stopping it 'after a “cut-off date”'' to prevent abuse of people from poor eastern Europe countries to flood UK before it leaves the EU. Right there in the first couple of paragraphs. I used to have a lot of respect for the BBC, Financial Times, and The Independent. Even The Guardian being partisan had the basic decency of putting things in perspective of the opposing side. Nowadays all turned into hardcore fanatics looking how to manipulate as much as possible the news to provoke reactions in readers. Perhaps they were cornered into this by the readership. And by Facebook and other social networks creating a cutthroat environment where only nasty clickbait survives. It's very sad. We are witnessing the end of respectable journalism.
- burkaman 10y ago
  What are you talking about? What is misleading about this headline? It doesn't contain literally every detail, because yes you are supposed to actually read the article. As you mentioned, the important details are right there in the first couple paragraphs, not missing or buried near the end. How would you have phrased this headline?
  - nothrabannosir 10y ago
    I'm an EU citizen living in the UK, and I held my breath reading this headline. I was relieved to read alecco's comment (and the actual article). I think that's what he means: the headline sounds like she's going to kick EU citizens out. After all, the headline, as it stands, applies to me. Her actual words, very explicitly, do not. That is misleading.
    - tobltobs 10y ago
      > ... applies to me. Her actual words, very explicitly, do not. I think you skipped this part: > providing the same was true for UK citizens living in the EU. That means your future in the UK is as safe as some bargain chips can be.
    - zoner 10y ago
struppi 10y ago
OK, wait, this does not make sense. If half of Romania an Bulgaria wanted to come to the UK, they would already be there. Because free movement already exists. Why would anyone decide now to "quickly move to the UK", just because they are leaving the EU? I would rather see this as a disincentive to move there, as a EU citicen, right now...
- golergka 10y ago
  Because you're probably a high-paid professional (reasonable assumption for a HN user) and are not considering staying in the country illegally after you arrive.
  - pavlov 10y ago
    Bulgarians have had all this time (10 years) to go live in the UK legally. Why would they suddenly rush to leave everything behind and go live there illegally? It doesn't make any sense.
    - kyledrake 10y ago
      Is this just straight up racism? What is special about these two specific countries that doesn't apply to any of the other ones in the EU?
      - magic_beans 10y ago
        Size of economy.
      - lawless123 10y ago
        Decades of tabloid news have convinced Britons that the UK is great place to live in spite of the UK having some of the poorest places in the northern EU. http://inequalitybriefing.org/graphics/briefing_43_UK_regions_poorest_North_Europe.pdf http://inequalitybriefing.org/graphics/briefing_43_UK_region...
      - mapleoin 10y ago
rodionos 10y ago
Is there a government resource supporting these statistics: > 3.6 million EU citizens who are already in Britain > 1.2 million British citizens living in other EU countries I like the Economist in this regard, they seem to always reference source data. It could be explained by the differences in editorial policies or the fact that the Economist is on a weekly release schedule, so their fact-checkers have more time to backup their inputs.
- Symbiote 10y ago
  It would be somewhere in https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/announcements https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/announcements or https://www.ons.gov.uk/ https://www.ons.gov.uk/ https://www.ons.gov.uk/search?q=eu+citizen https://www.ons.gov.uk/search?q=eu+citizen seems a good start.
- DanBC 10y ago
  It's a bit complicated, but: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/ukpopulationbycountryofbirthandnationality/august2016 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populati... > 3.2 million of the non-UK born residents were born in the EU (16% of whom held British nationality, 83% held EU nationality and 1% held non-EU nationality). > 5.4 million of the non-UK born residents were born outside of the EU (54% of whom held British nationality, 5% held EU nationality and 41% held non-EU nationality) – a reflection that EU nationals have the freedom of movement between EU countries, whereas for non-EU nationals there is an incentive to acquire British nationality. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/whatinformationisthereonbritishmigrantslivingineurope/jan2017 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populati... > Around 900,000 UK citizens are long-term residents of other EU countries; the largest age group is aged 30 to 49 years. I'm not sure where Independent is getting their numbers.
  - pimlottc 10y ago
    Those ONS numbers you cited would account for 2.92 million EU citizens living in the UK (3.2m * 0.83 + 5.4m * 0.05), but there's also the possibility of UK-born EU citizens living in the UK. Which admittedly doesn't exact fit most people's definitions of immigrants but may well be included in the Independent's number. It's also not clear how how the ONS numbers account for dual citizenship, since their numbers all up exactly to 100%.
sparkzilla 10y ago
Why is this on HN?
- EasyTiger_ 10y ago
  The massive anti-Brexit, anti-Trump astroturfing campaign which has ruined reddit wants to come here, too.
  - pavlov 10y ago
    Both sides of this debate are equally guilty of accusing the others of astroturfing. To liberals, any pro-Trump poster must be a Russian operating out of a St. Petersburg fake news factory. To conservatives, any anti-Trump poster must be a paid protester on the payroll of George Soros. I feel it would make sense for HN to have a full ban on any accusations of astroturfing or paid trolling.
    - EasyTiger_ 10y ago
      And yet you don't see any blatant pro-Brexit or pro-Trump stories here
      - pavlov 10y ago
        Why do you think that is due to astroturfing? Everyone is free to post stories from Breitbart, Daily Mail or Russia Today. I guess they just don't get enough upvotes.
        pessimizer 10y ago
        I'd be willing to bet that those particular sites are weighted negatively here. There are pro-Trump policy articles from more mainstream conservative sources, though.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 10y ago
acd 10y ago
This should cause inflation of prices as the price of food increase. This is due to it being more expensive to produce food in the UK versus importing it from for example Spain and the Netherlands. Thus the average UK consumer will be poorer. Not limited only products such as vegetables.
- alecco 10y ago
  What are you talking aobut? EU protectionism raises food prices.
  - pjc50 10y ago
    http://www.fwi.co.uk/news/nfu-issues-warning-potential-labour-shortage.htm http://www.fwi.co.uk/news/nfu-issues-warning-potential-labou... http://www.producebusinessuk.com/insight/insight-stories/2017/01/12/post-brexit-scheme-for-seasonal-agricultural-workers-could-be-on-the-cards http://www.producebusinessuk.com/insight/insight-stories/201... “UK citizens do not like to come and pick our crops and so we have to bring in workers from the EU; from Poland, Czech Republic and Bulgaria etc. They represent 95 percent of our workforce and without them we are absolutely sunk,” he said.
    - oblio 10y ago
      No, man, I'm sure the lower class British workers will be glad to work for crap pay and be treated as sh*t just so the rest of the Britons get cheap produce :)
- pessimizer 10y ago
  It also creates more jobs, less of that money leaving the UK as remittances, and pressure on businesses with workers paid so low that consumption of basic products eats up a large part of their wages to raise those wages. So who knows how it will shake out. It's certainly not an unambiguous moral good to have a class of people in the country who can unofficially be treated worse than the native-born because they're expected to live in squalor to support their families back home.
DrNuke 10y ago
As an EU cit who left five years ago, working through short gigs and remote consultancy made me appreciate their persoective but also think that we are all going for a bumpy road and united might be better than alone.
TorKlingberg 10y ago
As I read it, this means that EU nationals will be able to enter the UK up until it leaves the EU, but when it has left, those who entered after the cut-off date will not necessarily be allowed to stay. It doesn't look too unreasonably, and probably doesn't violate EU rules by itself, but I wonder about a few things: * How will it effect EU nationals getting for example a mortgage in the UK before the exit? Normally banks require a permanent right of residency and an EU passport is enough to prove it. * How will EU nationals who entered before the cut-off date prove it to the government? Immigration applications can often be ridiculously cumbersome. Will someone who has lived in the UK for 20 years be expected to submit detailed documentation for every international trip in those 20 years?
dgelks 10y ago
As a CTO of a London based tech startup who has just employed an EU national with a start date after the 15th of March this article is terrifying.
- SmellyGeekBoy 10y ago
  I employed one 6 months ago and literally just scheduled an interview with another this morning for later in the week. Fun times...
- alecco 10y ago
  UK Work Permits are trivial to get for tech workers from anywhere in the world.
  - dgelks 10y ago
    Sure, they can definitely come in with another visa but that requires a fair bit more work compared to a 'local' hire which is an added cost. Then once they get here (if the article is true) they don't have any right to remain in the country for an extended period of time which makes attracting them over/keeping them here even more difficult.
Gys 10y ago
More accurate headline would be: Theresa May to end [new] EU citizens’ rights to live in UK
kriro 10y ago
Made me wonder if I'm "the EU" do I respond to this by a) Saying that the same rules will apply to UK citizens living in EU countries at that point in time (hard line). b) Saying "UK folks welcome". c) No comment/ignore.
mcintyre1994 10y ago
> “She will be giving clarity by setting a clear deadline while the European Union looks increasingly muddled and mean-spirited.” > The European Union has apparently argued that the cut-off date should be the same date as the day the UK actually leaves the EU. - They're not sounding particularly muddled or mean-spirited to me..
ianopolous 10y ago
Here is an actual barrister's opinion of the situation, and it isn't pretty! https://www.freemovement.org.uk/briefing-legal-status-eu-citizens-uk/ https://www.freemovement.org.uk/briefing-legal-status-eu-cit...
customersupport 10y ago
Well, the UK really seems to put a tough stance on immigration now: Woman deported from UK despite being married to Briton for 27 years https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/26/grandmother-deported-from-uk-despite-being-married-to-briton-for-27-years https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/26/grandmother-... There is a German saying: "God knew, why he put the island monkeys on on island. But he did not expect them to build ships..."
kozikow 10y ago
Hmm, do you think article 50 would further reduce GBP/USD ratio? I have some money in GBP and I am considering selling now.

126 points by jaoued 10y ago

toyg 10y ago

It makes sense, I don't think anyone could realistically expect anything different. Considering it's basically a starting negotiating position, it's actually pretty good from my perspective (EU national who has formally been granted permanent residency by exercising his treaty rights). Obviously the devil is in the details, i.e. what it will mean exactly "after the cutoff date": if one has lived in UK long enough to qualify for treaty-rights but never actually exercised them formally before the cutoff, can he still do it after that date? That's the situation most people are likely in, at the moment. A reasonable government would answer yes, of course, but recent news seem to indicate they are looking for any excuse to kick people out, so it's not a given. If you are an EU citizen living in UK, you should absolutely ask to exercise your rights TODAY; do not delay, do not trust news reports, it's just a bit of bureaucracy but could make a big difference in your future. Make sure you send documents as recorded delivery and track each and every date. If you are an EU citizen looking to move to the UK: just don't. This country has decided they don't need you and me, they don't deserve our labour, our ideas and our taxes.

barrkel 10y ago
My perspective is a little bit different. If they want to kick me out, I'll go somewhere else. I am Irish; the probability is high that my nationality will be treated differently owing to history. But if they want me to ask to stay, they can go fuck themselves.
- toyg 10y ago
  I agree with your attitude in the long run (and am looking to move out myself), but in the immediate I think it's important for people to prepare so that they are not arbitrarily pressured into making immediate choices. Say you own a house, and the government says you don't have a right to live here anymore; you'll likely sell that house at a low price as you rush to relocate. History is full of this sort of profiteering following forced exodus (Spanish Jews, German Jews, Turkish Greeks and so on). If a bit if bureaucracy can save you from that, I think it's smart to do it.
  - a3n 10y ago
    > (Spanish Jews, German Jews, Turkish Greeks and so on) And many more; as an American it immediately brings to mind WWII Japanese internment. Businesses and homes lost to pressure and profiteering as people were ripped out of society and dropped in open-air prisons.
- farbrortumm 10y ago
  "If they want me to ask to stay, they can go fuck themselves." Swede living in London here. I've got exactly the same opinion.
  - kawsper 10y ago
    Dane living in Nottingham here, I feel the exact same way. I am working remote, so my job moves with me, and it might be back home, hopefully with my british girlfriend :) but I fear the future, and how much bureaucracy we will face.
    - rolandino 10y ago
      UK person living in London. Feel the same. And I'm a UK citizen. If all goes as plans, the UK will become some weird, inward looking backwater, with crap schools, health service - unless you're v rich.
    - yread 10y ago
      Spoken like a true Viking: take their gold AND their wenches!
- alecco 10y ago
  > If they want to kick me out Did the article? This is about a cutoff date to stop a wave of last minute immigrants. Nothing about expelling current ones. Don't let clickbait headlines make you angry.
  - kbart 10y ago
    "Nothing about expelling current ones. " Don't be so sure about that: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/26/grandmother-deported-from-uk-despite-being-married-to-briton-for-27-years https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/26/grandmother-...
    - MLR 10y ago
      This case is completely unrelated to the rights of EU citizens to live and work in the UK.
      - kbart 10y ago
        While slightly different laws may apply, it clearly shows the attitude of UK's officials.
      - Anderkent 10y ago
        For now. Presumably even if you were here for >5 years now as an EU citizen, if you went to europe for >2 years, you wouldn't be allowed in, the same as this lady.
  - ascorbic 10y ago
    They probably won't be expelling anyone, but the UK government has explicitly said that they'll use the rights of EU citizens in the UK as a bargaining chip, so if I were an EU citizen in the UK I'd be worried.
    - gadders 10y ago
      They've explicitly said they don't want to use them as a bargaining chip, but would be foolish to give it up uniliaterally.
- raverbashing 10y ago
  > I am Irish; the probability is high that my nationality will be treated differently owing to history Yes, I think you're allowed to stay.
  - CalRobert 10y ago
    Based on what exactly? If you have sources to cite there are many interested people. So far we've a general feeling of "people have been moving between these two countries freely since decades before the EU existed so they couldn't stop that... could they?" - could they? Then again, isn't the EU supposed to bargain as a block? Any firm comment on this by a party in a position to influence policy would be received with great interest.
    - pjc50 10y ago
      Ireland is a special case; the Ireland Act 1949 provides that "Ireland is not a foreign country", and the Good Friday Agreement requires an open border between Eire and NI. Like everything else, this is now subject to uncertainty. http://irishpost.co.uk/irish-government-attempts-calm-citizens-uk-ministers-refuse-guarantee-eu-nationals-rights-remain/ http://irishpost.co.uk/irish-government-attempts-calm-citize... (The possibility of NI rejoining Éire has now moved from "unthinkable" to "maybe". If a border gets imposed as part of Brexit that moves to "likely")
      - ascorbic 10y ago
        There hasn't been a word from the UK government about how this could be achieved. There seems to be no realistic way to retain an open border with the Republic of Ireland while not having an open border with the rest of the EU. The mythical Romanian could just fly to Dublin, drive to NI and catch a ferry. The only solution that I can see is to move the border to the North Sea. An open border with the Republic, but border controls between NI and GB. I imagine that will go down like a cup of cold sick with a good proportion of the population of NI.
        pjc50 10y ago
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- MLR 10y ago
  Irish citizens in the UK hold a more favourable status than EU citizens as is, the likelyhood of this changing is practically nil.
jaimebuelta 10y ago
It doesn't make sense at all. Until the end of the two years of the Article 50 negotiation (or before, if both the EU and the UK agree), the UK is a full member of the EU, with all the obligations that this entitles. That includes the right to live and work of citizens of other EU countries. Restricting that unilaterally is a gross violation of the treaties.
- dovdovdov 10y ago
  Yeah, many things seem kinda bogus regarding this mess, even the PM herself.
- hackerboos 10y ago
  They're not violating the treaties, they are saying if EU citizens come after a certain date then their residency is not guaranteed. EU citizens will be free to come right up until the UK exits the EU but those that came after said date will likely have to apply for visas. Those before will keep residency.
dan1234 10y ago
> If you are an EU citizen looking to move to the UK: just don't. This country has decided they don't need you and me, they don't deserve our labour, our ideas and our taxes. Well, 52% of the people who voted kinda, sorta said that. The rest of us are just being dragged along at the moment.
yandie 10y ago
> If you are an EU citizen living in UK, you should absolutely ask to exercise your rights TODAY; do not delay, do not trust news reports, it's just a bit of bureaucracy but could make a big difference in your future. Make sure you send documents as recorded delivery and track each and every date. Apparently my Dutch friend who has a PhD funded by the UK government can't apply for permanent residency because she doesn't earn enough to meet the £35k minimum earning set by the UK government. She's been here for almost 8 years. She's lucky that she's getting married and her now-fiance earns enough to make her qualify for spousal visa, but I know tons of others who are not so lucky.
- toyg 10y ago
  That's wrong, the 35k threshold is for non-EU people only. I dearly hope she wasn't willingly misinformed by civil servants.
  - phillc73 10y ago
    And I am pretty sure it isn't 35k, more like £18,600 without children. Nonetheless, any amount above £0 makes my life a misery. I'm British living in another EU country, with my non-EU spouse and British son. Who knows how my situation will resolve itself. This article holds out some olive branch of the offer of EU citizenship for people in my situation. However, let's play the hypothetical situation that I am forced to leave due to negotiation breakdowns or whatever. I return to the UK, right? Unfortunately, my wife can't join me until I already earn above about a £22k threshold (additional for child). It isn't that I don't believe I can earn that amount, it is the elapsed time and enforced separation. Maybe it takes me a couple of months to find a job, it will then probably take several months for my wife's Visa application to be processed (she's already randomly had one visitor visa application denied, which we appealed against and won, but it was a 12 month process). And what's her status in our current EU country of residence if I have returned to the UK? It's all a big old mess for those of us exercising our EU treaty rights.
- vilmosi 10y ago
  Your Dutch friend is misinformed. She doesn't need any earnings to apply for permanent residency (talking from experience).
_yosefk 10y ago
"This country has decided they don't need you and me, they don't deserve our labour, our ideas and our taxes." What about an EU citizen deciding to move to the US, Canada, Australia, Brazil or India? These countries were never in the EU. Did they therefore decide they don't need EU citizens? If not, why is the UK after it exits from the EU necessarily a less welcoming place for EU citizens than other non-EU countries?
- pavlov 10y ago
  The United States is not a welcoming place for EU citizens. Immigration is strictly limited, the procedures expensive and time-consuming. If that's the bar for the UK government, the grandparent poster is right: it's not going to be worth even looking at Britain. To put it another way: if working in London, New York and San Francisco are going to be equally difficult to arrange, I'm not sure why anyone would prefer London. Housing is as expensive as NY or SF, yet wages are much lower. The weather isn't great either.
  - _yosefk 10y ago
    These can be valid points for some, and carry less weight for others (say, if you live in Paris and are offered a good job in London, and they help you deal with the visa stuff, for most it's probably also nice to be able to visit Paris much more easily than you could from NY or SF.) At any rate, "not sure why anyone would prefer London with the post-EU laws" is very different from "they decided they don't want me because they're not in the EU (even though there might be an otherwise nicely sounding arrangement available for me)."
    - Symbiote 10y ago
      > if you live in Paris and are offered a good job in London, and they help you deal with the visa stuff Note that the freedom of movement in the EU means there isn't any "visa stuff" to deal with. An EU citizen moving to the UK needs to fill in a form, to get a "National Insurance" number. The same would be required of a British citizen that didn't have one, for example if they'd been born and lived overseas before moving to the UK. There are no other requirements that don't also apply to British / resident people moving within the UK.
alecco 10y ago
> If you are an EU citizen looking to move to the UK: just don't I call BS on that. UK is quite open to LEGAL worker immigration from anywhere around the world. What's the big deal? I worked in UK for years and I'm not EU. Many Americans, Asians, Australians, etc. go through these channels without issue. After a few years they give you residentship. And shortly after that they give you citizenship. It's crazy how this is all made to sound like UK is going to become Cuba or something. ALARMIST NONSENSE by radicalization and willful ignorance.
- mdekkers 10y ago
  UK is quite open to LEGAL worker immigration from anywhere around the world. lol, no it isn't - legal immigration from the EU is the main pillar of Brexit: "Stop all these people coming to live in our country."
- jcranmer 10y ago
  Didn't the Conservatives campaign in the last election about bringing legal immigration numbers down to <100K/year?
  - MLR 10y ago
    Net migration, if you discount returning British citizens it currently sits at around 200,000 a year (500,000 gross), so it would be an approximate 20% reduction in non-British immigration. Or a 30% increase in emigration, but I doubt they're aiming for that.
- Anderkent 10y ago
  It's a simple distinction: 1. You want to come work in London? Fill out all these forms, pay fees, prove that you're going to be useful, and we might allow you to stay 2. You want to come work in Berlin? Sure, come along. Do you see how the latter makes you feel much more welcome?
Symbiote 10y ago
> It makes sense, I don't think anyone could realistically expect anything different I might not expect it, but I do hope that a country that prides itself on the rule of law, and the historic influence it had in the world, would not break the terms of an international treaty. > it's actually pretty good from my perspective Are you familiar with the British expression, "I'm all right, Jack"? > exercise your rights TODAY ... it's just a bit of bureaucracy Ah, the 85 page form with the £65 fee, which many of my friends are worried they'll not be able to fill in correctly -- especially after all the stories in the British press of the long-term residents whose applications were rejected. For comparison, the Danish form for permanent residency has 6 pages in English (and 6 in Danish, it's bilingual), no fee, and only requires copies of the last few tax returns and a current job contract. Unfortunately, even if Britain remains in the UK until, say, 31 March 2019, I'll still be a few months short of the 5 year requirement.
lukasm 10y ago
It seems the only way to execute your rights is to apply for residency and that requires 5 years.

alecco 10y ago

It's sad how even the Independent is now taken by misleading headlines. They are considering stopping it 'after a “cut-off date”'' to prevent abuse of people from poor eastern Europe countries to flood UK before it leaves the EU. Right there in the first couple of paragraphs. I used to have a lot of respect for the BBC, Financial Times, and The Independent. Even The Guardian being partisan had the basic decency of putting things in perspective of the opposing side. Nowadays all turned into hardcore fanatics looking how to manipulate as much as possible the news to provoke reactions in readers. Perhaps they were cornered into this by the readership. And by Facebook and other social networks creating a cutthroat environment where only nasty clickbait survives. It's very sad. We are witnessing the end of respectable journalism.

burkaman 10y ago
What are you talking about? What is misleading about this headline? It doesn't contain literally every detail, because yes you are supposed to actually read the article. As you mentioned, the important details are right there in the first couple paragraphs, not missing or buried near the end. How would you have phrased this headline?
- nothrabannosir 10y ago
  I'm an EU citizen living in the UK, and I held my breath reading this headline. I was relieved to read alecco's comment (and the actual article). I think that's what he means: the headline sounds like she's going to kick EU citizens out. After all, the headline, as it stands, applies to me. Her actual words, very explicitly, do not. That is misleading.
  - tobltobs 10y ago
    > ... applies to me. Her actual words, very explicitly, do not. I think you skipped this part: > providing the same was true for UK citizens living in the EU. That means your future in the UK is as safe as some bargain chips can be.
  - zoner 10y ago

struppi 10y ago

OK, wait, this does not make sense. If half of Romania an Bulgaria wanted to come to the UK, they would already be there. Because free movement already exists. Why would anyone decide now to "quickly move to the UK", just because they are leaving the EU? I would rather see this as a disincentive to move there, as a EU citicen, right now...

golergka 10y ago
Because you're probably a high-paid professional (reasonable assumption for a HN user) and are not considering staying in the country illegally after you arrive.
- pavlov 10y ago
  Bulgarians have had all this time (10 years) to go live in the UK legally. Why would they suddenly rush to leave everything behind and go live there illegally? It doesn't make any sense.
  - kyledrake 10y ago
    Is this just straight up racism? What is special about these two specific countries that doesn't apply to any of the other ones in the EU?
    - magic_beans 10y ago
      Size of economy.
    - lawless123 10y ago
      Decades of tabloid news have convinced Britons that the UK is great place to live in spite of the UK having some of the poorest places in the northern EU. http://inequalitybriefing.org/graphics/briefing_43_UK_regions_poorest_North_Europe.pdf http://inequalitybriefing.org/graphics/briefing_43_UK_region...
    - mapleoin 10y ago

rodionos 10y ago

Is there a government resource supporting these statistics: > 3.6 million EU citizens who are already in Britain > 1.2 million British citizens living in other EU countries I like the Economist in this regard, they seem to always reference source data. It could be explained by the differences in editorial policies or the fact that the Economist is on a weekly release schedule, so their fact-checkers have more time to backup their inputs.

Symbiote 10y ago
It would be somewhere in https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/announcements https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/announcements or https://www.ons.gov.uk/ https://www.ons.gov.uk/ https://www.ons.gov.uk/search?q=eu+citizen https://www.ons.gov.uk/search?q=eu+citizen seems a good start.
DanBC 10y ago
It's a bit complicated, but: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/ukpopulationbycountryofbirthandnationality/august2016 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populati... > 3.2 million of the non-UK born residents were born in the EU (16% of whom held British nationality, 83% held EU nationality and 1% held non-EU nationality). > 5.4 million of the non-UK born residents were born outside of the EU (54% of whom held British nationality, 5% held EU nationality and 41% held non-EU nationality) – a reflection that EU nationals have the freedom of movement between EU countries, whereas for non-EU nationals there is an incentive to acquire British nationality. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/whatinformationisthereonbritishmigrantslivingineurope/jan2017 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populati... > Around 900,000 UK citizens are long-term residents of other EU countries; the largest age group is aged 30 to 49 years. I'm not sure where Independent is getting their numbers.
- pimlottc 10y ago
  Those ONS numbers you cited would account for 2.92 million EU citizens living in the UK (3.2m * 0.83 + 5.4m * 0.05), but there's also the possibility of UK-born EU citizens living in the UK. Which admittedly doesn't exact fit most people's definitions of immigrants but may well be included in the Independent's number. It's also not clear how how the ONS numbers account for dual citizenship, since their numbers all up exactly to 100%.

sparkzilla 10y ago

Why is this on HN?

EasyTiger_ 10y ago
The massive anti-Brexit, anti-Trump astroturfing campaign which has ruined reddit wants to come here, too.
- pavlov 10y ago
  Both sides of this debate are equally guilty of accusing the others of astroturfing. To liberals, any pro-Trump poster must be a Russian operating out of a St. Petersburg fake news factory. To conservatives, any anti-Trump poster must be a paid protester on the payroll of George Soros. I feel it would make sense for HN to have a full ban on any accusations of astroturfing or paid trolling.
  - EasyTiger_ 10y ago
    And yet you don't see any blatant pro-Brexit or pro-Trump stories here
    - pavlov 10y ago
      Why do you think that is due to astroturfing? Everyone is free to post stories from Breitbart, Daily Mail or Russia Today. I guess they just don't get enough upvotes.
      - pessimizer 10y ago
        I'd be willing to bet that those particular sites are weighted negatively here. There are pro-Trump policy articles from more mainstream conservative sources, though.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 10y ago

acd 10y ago

This should cause inflation of prices as the price of food increase. This is due to it being more expensive to produce food in the UK versus importing it from for example Spain and the Netherlands. Thus the average UK consumer will be poorer. Not limited only products such as vegetables.

alecco 10y ago
What are you talking aobut? EU protectionism raises food prices.
- pjc50 10y ago
  http://www.fwi.co.uk/news/nfu-issues-warning-potential-labour-shortage.htm http://www.fwi.co.uk/news/nfu-issues-warning-potential-labou... http://www.producebusinessuk.com/insight/insight-stories/2017/01/12/post-brexit-scheme-for-seasonal-agricultural-workers-could-be-on-the-cards http://www.producebusinessuk.com/insight/insight-stories/201... “UK citizens do not like to come and pick our crops and so we have to bring in workers from the EU; from Poland, Czech Republic and Bulgaria etc. They represent 95 percent of our workforce and without them we are absolutely sunk,” he said.
  - oblio 10y ago
    No, man, I'm sure the lower class British workers will be glad to work for crap pay and be treated as sh*t just so the rest of the Britons get cheap produce :)
pessimizer 10y ago
It also creates more jobs, less of that money leaving the UK as remittances, and pressure on businesses with workers paid so low that consumption of basic products eats up a large part of their wages to raise those wages. So who knows how it will shake out. It's certainly not an unambiguous moral good to have a class of people in the country who can unofficially be treated worse than the native-born because they're expected to live in squalor to support their families back home.

DrNuke 10y ago

As an EU cit who left five years ago, working through short gigs and remote consultancy made me appreciate their persoective but also think that we are all going for a bumpy road and united might be better than alone.

TorKlingberg 10y ago

As I read it, this means that EU nationals will be able to enter the UK up until it leaves the EU, but when it has left, those who entered after the cut-off date will not necessarily be allowed to stay. It doesn't look too unreasonably, and probably doesn't violate EU rules by itself, but I wonder about a few things: * How will it effect EU nationals getting for example a mortgage in the UK before the exit? Normally banks require a permanent right of residency and an EU passport is enough to prove it. * How will EU nationals who entered before the cut-off date prove it to the government? Immigration applications can often be ridiculously cumbersome. Will someone who has lived in the UK for 20 years be expected to submit detailed documentation for every international trip in those 20 years?

dgelks 10y ago

As a CTO of a London based tech startup who has just employed an EU national with a start date after the 15th of March this article is terrifying.

SmellyGeekBoy 10y ago
I employed one 6 months ago and literally just scheduled an interview with another this morning for later in the week. Fun times...
alecco 10y ago
UK Work Permits are trivial to get for tech workers from anywhere in the world.
- dgelks 10y ago
  Sure, they can definitely come in with another visa but that requires a fair bit more work compared to a 'local' hire which is an added cost. Then once they get here (if the article is true) they don't have any right to remain in the country for an extended period of time which makes attracting them over/keeping them here even more difficult.

Gys 10y ago

More accurate headline would be: Theresa May to end [new] EU citizens’ rights to live in UK

kriro 10y ago

Made me wonder if I'm "the EU" do I respond to this by a) Saying that the same rules will apply to UK citizens living in EU countries at that point in time (hard line). b) Saying "UK folks welcome". c) No comment/ignore.

mcintyre1994 10y ago

> “She will be giving clarity by setting a clear deadline while the European Union looks increasingly muddled and mean-spirited.” > The European Union has apparently argued that the cut-off date should be the same date as the day the UK actually leaves the EU. - They're not sounding particularly muddled or mean-spirited to me..

ianopolous 10y ago

Here is an actual barrister's opinion of the situation, and it isn't pretty! https://www.freemovement.org.uk/briefing-legal-status-eu-citizens-uk/ https://www.freemovement.org.uk/briefing-legal-status-eu-cit...

customersupport 10y ago

Well, the UK really seems to put a tough stance on immigration now: Woman deported from UK despite being married to Briton for 27 years https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/26/grandmother-deported-from-uk-despite-being-married-to-briton-for-27-years https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/26/grandmother-... There is a German saying: "God knew, why he put the island monkeys on on island. But he did not expect them to build ships..."

kozikow 10y ago

Hmm, do you think article 50 would further reduce GBP/USD ratio? I have some money in GBP and I am considering selling now.