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This gives me an idea actually. What if submissions actually did start at 0, costing submitters 1 karma to submit? It would have a chilling effect on submissio

This gives me an idea actually. What if submissions actually did start at 0, costing submitters 1 karma to submit? It would have a chilling effect on submissions that would bias them toward stories that are obviously suited to HN, since a submitter would want to get back at least the point he lost. Also, it would prevent brand new accounts from submitting, and skew submissions away from newbies and toward veterans of HN, since vets will have significantly more karma. That means people who know what HN is and have been around HN for a while would be more likely to submit than the other people who aren't clear on the guidelines and cultural norms yet.

jacquesm 16y ago
Make it 5. Or even 10. And wipe the karma slate clean for everyone so old timers don't have an unfair advantage.
- arethuza 16y ago
  Maybe have a fixed number of submissions accepted per day and have people bid for acceptance?
RiderOfGiraffes 16y ago
My first visit here was in response to PG saying that I should submit something. Your scheme would prevent that. Perhaps people should get sponsored, and the sponsor shares the first few karma points/hits. A newbie submits something, and an old-fart - sorry, long-standing contributor - can offer to sponsor it. There are loads of schemes, but all require work, and all will have unintneded consequences. Yes, things could be better, but they could be worse. Nostalgia these days is not as good as it was ...
- jules 16y ago
  Just let users start with 2 karma.
  - RiderOfGiraffes 16y ago
    Randomly (but related to when a story is submitted) stories sink without trace, getting no comments, and no upvotes. Your suggestion would amount to "X strikes and you're out" with no possibility of redemption. Seems a bit harsh.
    - cperciva 16y ago
      with no possibility of redemption As long as this only applies to stories, there is a very easy chance of redemption: Make a good comment. If it weren't for the occasional "posting with a throwaway account for the sake of anonymity" Ask HN submission, I'd say that setting a non-zero karma threshold for submission would be a very good thing, since it would force new users to experience the community before they start making noise.
      - RiderOfGiraffes 16y ago
        >> ... with no possibility of redemption ... > As long as this only applies to stories, there > is a very easy chance of redemption: Make a good > comment. True. However ... According to PG, in his opinion it's the quality of the comments that's mostly causing the site to decline. From that point of view the suggestion doesn't really help. There are multiple problems, perhaps there should be multiple solutions/tweaks/features to attack them. Karma is well-known to be a blunt and faulty instrument, and making loads of minor tweaks to that single instrument in the hope of fixing all the problems might be the wrong way to go. Enculturating newbies is part of the problem - it's no longer happening. Using crowd-sourcing for assessment of quality is thereby being harmed, because people are just upvoting, and submitting, things they like and that make them smile. We want new users with new comments, new interests and new submissions, but the site needs to retain its focus, otherwise it will become another "submit this 'cos it's cute" site. Crowd-sourcing is needed to help the site scale. Newbies are needed to keep the site fresh. Old hands are needed to keep the site focussed. What seems to me to be missing is a feedback mechanism for people to learn why their submission/comments are less valued on this site specifically, and ways to concentrate that judgement in the hands of those whose judgement matches what PG wants. I have ideas, although they are all rather baroque, and I'm sure many others here have ideas as well. In all liklihood they won't be implemented, because PG doesn't have the time to evaluate them all sufficiently. Again, what's needed is for those with the vision that matches PG's to find an easily implemented, transparent, appropriate, fair and "good enough" solution. Maybe having submissions costing karma will work. I merely offered an aspect that needs to be considered.
petercooper 16y ago
What if submissions actually did start at 0, costing submitters 1 karma to submit? I'd prefer if submissions stayed at 1 but still "cost" you karma, in order to get the benefits you suggest. Rather than just 1 point, however, I'd suggest some sort of log-based calculation (so ppl with higher karma are provided with the same disincentive). That said, it appears - to me - that pg likes to keep the system as simple as possible and to only add new features when they're expected to resolve a significant problem. I don't see this idea as more than a "nice to have."

jacquesm 16y ago

Make it 5. Or even 10. And wipe the karma slate clean for everyone so old timers don't have an unfair advantage.

arethuza 16y ago
Maybe have a fixed number of submissions accepted per day and have people bid for acceptance?

RiderOfGiraffes 16y ago

My first visit here was in response to PG saying that I should submit something. Your scheme would prevent that. Perhaps people should get sponsored, and the sponsor shares the first few karma points/hits. A newbie submits something, and an old-fart - sorry, long-standing contributor - can offer to sponsor it. There are loads of schemes, but all require work, and all will have unintneded consequences. Yes, things could be better, but they could be worse. Nostalgia these days is not as good as it was ...

jules 16y ago
Just let users start with 2 karma.
- RiderOfGiraffes 16y ago
  Randomly (but related to when a story is submitted) stories sink without trace, getting no comments, and no upvotes. Your suggestion would amount to "X strikes and you're out" with no possibility of redemption. Seems a bit harsh.
  - cperciva 16y ago
    with no possibility of redemption As long as this only applies to stories, there is a very easy chance of redemption: Make a good comment. If it weren't for the occasional "posting with a throwaway account for the sake of anonymity" Ask HN submission, I'd say that setting a non-zero karma threshold for submission would be a very good thing, since it would force new users to experience the community before they start making noise.
    - RiderOfGiraffes 16y ago
      >> ... with no possibility of redemption ... > As long as this only applies to stories, there > is a very easy chance of redemption: Make a good > comment. True. However ... According to PG, in his opinion it's the quality of the comments that's mostly causing the site to decline. From that point of view the suggestion doesn't really help. There are multiple problems, perhaps there should be multiple solutions/tweaks/features to attack them. Karma is well-known to be a blunt and faulty instrument, and making loads of minor tweaks to that single instrument in the hope of fixing all the problems might be the wrong way to go. Enculturating newbies is part of the problem - it's no longer happening. Using crowd-sourcing for assessment of quality is thereby being harmed, because people are just upvoting, and submitting, things they like and that make them smile. We want new users with new comments, new interests and new submissions, but the site needs to retain its focus, otherwise it will become another "submit this 'cos it's cute" site. Crowd-sourcing is needed to help the site scale. Newbies are needed to keep the site fresh. Old hands are needed to keep the site focussed. What seems to me to be missing is a feedback mechanism for people to learn why their submission/comments are less valued on this site specifically, and ways to concentrate that judgement in the hands of those whose judgement matches what PG wants. I have ideas, although they are all rather baroque, and I'm sure many others here have ideas as well. In all liklihood they won't be implemented, because PG doesn't have the time to evaluate them all sufficiently. Again, what's needed is for those with the vision that matches PG's to find an easily implemented, transparent, appropriate, fair and "good enough" solution. Maybe having submissions costing karma will work. I merely offered an aspect that needs to be considered.

petercooper 16y ago

What if submissions actually did start at 0, costing submitters 1 karma to submit? I'd prefer if submissions stayed at 1 but still "cost" you karma, in order to get the benefits you suggest. Rather than just 1 point, however, I'd suggest some sort of log-based calculation (so ppl with higher karma are provided with the same disincentive). That said, it appears - to me - that pg likes to keep the system as simple as possible and to only add new features when they're expected to resolve a significant problem. I don't see this idea as more than a "nice to have."