6 ms·

I don't know why you think energy will be free. It's a zero sum game that's built into the laws of the universe.

by tbabb 10y ago

astrodust 10y ago
There is a shit-ton of energy in the universe. It's one of the few things that's ridiculously abundant. Consider: We live on a ball of molten iron. Dig a deep enough hole and you get a nearly unlimited supply of thermal energy.
- rgbrenner 10y ago
  Yes, but unless you're going to move your house to the bottom of that hole, someone is going to have to install and maintain the power lines to get that power to you. In that way it's very similar to oil.. no one has to pay to create the energy contained in oil, but they do have to pay to dig it up and distribute it. And yet, oil is not even close to being free. Edit: a better comparison would probably be hydro.. which also isnt free.
  - astrodust 10y ago
    I think you have a wobbly misunderstanding of physics. Iceland uses geothermal. They have it easy due to geological circumstances, but that's mostly a cost-saving measure. Any country can do the same. There's also geothermal systems for homes that cost far less that work by tapping the temperature differential in the ground: https://www.thisoldhouse.com/ideas/geothermal-heat-pump-how-it-works https://www.thisoldhouse.com/ideas/geothermal-heat-pump-how-... Oil is expensive because it's a scarce resource that requires a lot of effort to extract, process and transport.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - tedsanders 10y ago
      Please refrain from unnecessary, unsubstantiated insults. Rgbrenner's point that geothermal is costly for the same reasons that oil is costly - that is, it takes work to transport the energy in usable form - is valid. You're right that geothermal has a humongously deep supply curve, but that doesn't mean its price will be zero.
      - astrodust 10y ago
        I'm specifically referring to the remark you'd have to build your home in a hole, which honestly makes no sense at all.
        tedsanders 10y ago
        The point was that if you want energy in your home, you either (1) have to transport energy to your home or (2) place your home at the source of the energy. Since placing your home next to a large temperature differential is difficult, then the future will continue to rely on option (1), transporting energy to your home. And if energy has to be transported, its final price will not be zero, even if its wholesale price is.
        astrodust 10y ago
        Nothing will ever be truly zero cost, but those costs can be minimal. A geothermal system for your house involves "transporting energy to your home" but the distances involved are so minimal that once installed it's next to nothing. > Since placing your home next to a large temperature differential is difficult... Well, that's wrong. Every house sits on top of a significant temperature differential which is why geothermal systems work. In large parts of the continental US the ground deep beneath the house maintains a consistent temperature year round. This can be used as a thermal sink in the summer, and a source of heat in the winter.
        gregw2 10y ago
        A friend of mine just got geothermal for his very ordinary house in a major metropolitan area. It was cheaper than the solar on my house was a bunch of years ago. Your point seems very bogus to me.
  - bbcbasic 10y ago
    E = mc^2. In the far future I think we'll do fusion and it'll be portable and cheap.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
- Waterluvian 10y ago
  Yep. When we are brokers of energy at a scale where it can't be considered infinite, we will also be a fundamentally different species than we are today. That being said, until we have highly optimized how we utilize that unlimited source, it will remain a scarce resource.
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  Very little is unlimited when crossed with exponential growth rates. Early books (1860s to 1880s) on oil, gas, and coal noteed that tthe United States' coal reserves were good for one millon years, _at then-present rates of consumption._ The rates increased. A few centuries, tops, now. British coal extraction peaked in the early 20th century. UCSD physicist Tom Murphy extrapolates human acttivitty to galactic-sscale energy conssumption in fairly short time. http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/ http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/galactic-scale-e...
- rimantas 10y ago
  There is also more food than humans need. But there are some starving ones. Distribution is the problem. As for universe, the only meaningful sources are earth and Sun, anything farther away may not exist at all.
comboy 10y ago
Kind of answered this to tedsanders below, but basically I think what makes you win in this zero sum game is information. There are pretty much just two things available in big perspective that can make you win: energy and information. And I think information scales better.

I don't know why you think energy will be free. It's a zero sum game that's built into the laws of the universe.

by tbabb 10y ago

I don't know why you think energy will be free. It's a zero sum game that's built into the laws of the universe.

There is a shit-ton of energy in the universe. It's one of the few things that's ridiculously abundant. Consider: We live on a ball of molten iron. Dig a deep enough hole and you get a nearly unlimited supply of thermal energy.

rgbrenner 10y ago
Yes, but unless you're going to move your house to the bottom of that hole, someone is going to have to install and maintain the power lines to get that power to you. In that way it's very similar to oil.. no one has to pay to create the energy contained in oil, but they do have to pay to dig it up and distribute it. And yet, oil is not even close to being free. Edit: a better comparison would probably be hydro.. which also isnt free.
- astrodust 10y ago
  I think you have a wobbly misunderstanding of physics. Iceland uses geothermal. They have it easy due to geological circumstances, but that's mostly a cost-saving measure. Any country can do the same. There's also geothermal systems for homes that cost far less that work by tapping the temperature differential in the ground: https://www.thisoldhouse.com/ideas/geothermal-heat-pump-how-it-works https://www.thisoldhouse.com/ideas/geothermal-heat-pump-how-... Oil is expensive because it's a scarce resource that requires a lot of effort to extract, process and transport.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - tedsanders 10y ago
    Please refrain from unnecessary, unsubstantiated insults. Rgbrenner's point that geothermal is costly for the same reasons that oil is costly - that is, it takes work to transport the energy in usable form - is valid. You're right that geothermal has a humongously deep supply curve, but that doesn't mean its price will be zero.
    - astrodust 10y ago
      I'm specifically referring to the remark you'd have to build your home in a hole, which honestly makes no sense at all.
      - tedsanders 10y ago
        The point was that if you want energy in your home, you either (1) have to transport energy to your home or (2) place your home at the source of the energy. Since placing your home next to a large temperature differential is difficult, then the future will continue to rely on option (1), transporting energy to your home. And if energy has to be transported, its final price will not be zero, even if its wholesale price is.
        astrodust 10y ago
        Nothing will ever be truly zero cost, but those costs can be minimal. A geothermal system for your house involves "transporting energy to your home" but the distances involved are so minimal that once installed it's next to nothing. > Since placing your home next to a large temperature differential is difficult... Well, that's wrong. Every house sits on top of a significant temperature differential which is why geothermal systems work. In large parts of the continental US the ground deep beneath the house maintains a consistent temperature year round. This can be used as a thermal sink in the summer, and a source of heat in the winter.
        gregw2 10y ago
        A friend of mine just got geothermal for his very ordinary house in a major metropolitan area. It was cheaper than the solar on my house was a bunch of years ago. Your point seems very bogus to me.
- bbcbasic 10y ago
  E = mc^2. In the far future I think we'll do fusion and it'll be portable and cheap.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
Waterluvian 10y ago
Yep. When we are brokers of energy at a scale where it can't be considered infinite, we will also be a fundamentally different species than we are today. That being said, until we have highly optimized how we utilize that unlimited source, it will remain a scarce resource.
dredmorbius 10y ago
Very little is unlimited when crossed with exponential growth rates. Early books (1860s to 1880s) on oil, gas, and coal noteed that tthe United States' coal reserves were good for one millon years, _at then-present rates of consumption._ The rates increased. A few centuries, tops, now. British coal extraction peaked in the early 20th century. UCSD physicist Tom Murphy extrapolates human acttivitty to galactic-sscale energy conssumption in fairly short time. http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/ http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/galactic-scale-e...
rimantas 10y ago
There is also more food than humans need. But there are some starving ones. Distribution is the problem. As for universe, the only meaningful sources are earth and Sun, anything farther away may not exist at all.

comboy 10y ago

Kind of answered this to tedsanders below, but basically I think what makes you win in this zero sum game is information. There are pretty much just two things available in big perspective that can make you win: energy and information. And I think information scales better.