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Ask HN: What should I tell my cousin who wants to go to a “coding boot camp”?

73 points by everybodyknows 10y ago

She's a recent grad with an international relations major. Now wants to go to a local web dev boot camp, which looks to me just more-or-less legit. Any alternative ideas?

smilesnd 10y ago
Mattering your location and whats around I would advise meetups and/or hackerspaces. It would give your cousin a good feel for the local environment. As well she might meet some people that try the boot camp out. If she does do the boot camp I would advise her to do some self study before hand. These boot camps try to cram as much info they can into a short period of time. She would probably get more out of the boot camp if she tries to learn coding on her own first. There is a ton of free resources she can try before hand.
SN76477 10y ago
Spend 80 hours on Lynda.com first. Then decide if coding is really where you want to be.
jasonthevillain 10y ago
Cool! I usually suggest people pick up a book and try learning enough to build something simple first so they get a feel for what's involved and whether they like it.
mceoin 10y ago
(Foreword: I went through a bootcamp, had a positive experience). The only reason not to go through a bootcamp, presuming it is reputable, is price sensitivity. They offer better value than a college degree (salary offer wise, both for technical and non-technical roles in tech industry), accelerate the pace of early-stage learning, and create healthy habits that are distinct to programming (e.g. tests, debugging, pseudo-code). Long list of positive reasons here, as long as mindset going in isn't "I'm going to be a developer in 9 weeks" (true only on the loosest definition of the word).
brianwawok 10y ago
Read a coding book first, see if she has a nack?
soneca 10y ago
I would say: go for it! Why not? I don't actually get what's the doubt.
- seattle_spring 10y ago
  "Why not?" Well, I might start at the $10-$15k price tag.
hoodoof 10y ago
Why do you need alternative ideas? You could just let her go to what she wants to. We technology people seem to have this built in need to get people to try other things than what they want to do. It's a form of controlling behaviour.
- yorwba 10y ago
  Would you say the same if she wanted to go to an expensive acting workshop that promises she will land a job with Hollywood in just 12 weeks? (And that might not even be a lie, since someone needs to be the extra that gets shot in the first 5 seconds.) Not saying all or even most coding boot camps are like that, but based on my reading of HN submissions, some definitely do overpromise and underdeliver. Finding potentially more fitting ways of getting into the field could simply be helping out.
  - fuzzyninja 10y ago
    A sincere question that I have often: what if the jobs these people land (and that many that we here do) are _not_ Hollywoodian at all? What if that does indicate that a lot of the things we can do can be done by someone with this level of experience and aptitude? Related: https://www.wired.com/2017/02/programming-is-the-new-blue-collar-job/ https://www.wired.com/2017/02/programming-is-the-new-blue-co...
- true_religion 10y ago
  Having alternatives is always a good thing. Plus being a 'young' cousin, they have graduated so they are 18 or 22 and can judge alternatives for themselves.
- everybodyknows 10y ago
  I need alternative ideas because I was asked what I thought about the school in question. Not sure it would be proper netiquette to mention the name.
OJFord 10y ago
> Any alternative ideas? From the comments so far, I think there's some confusion about what you mean by this. Are you trying to dissuade her? Motivate her? You're neutral, but asking for suggestions of things she might do to satiate coding desires other than a 'boot camp'?
- everybodyknows 10y ago
  A few months previous I suggested online self-instruction, but didn't hear back on the idea. Perhaps some people prefer the social structure of a classroom for learning.
whytaka 10y ago
Try pyschools.com or codeschool.com and see how much she gets it on her own. I truly believe being a programmer is a third logical intuition another third resourcefulness, and lastly discipline. She has to be able to demonstrate them all and the websites I pointed to (especially the former) will certainly test her.
et-al 10y ago
Which one? Key things are: - you get out what you put in. attending a boot camp is not a guarantee you'll land well-paying job. you have to demonstrate to a new employer you've mastered the skills to help their company - depending on the bootcamp, it will take 8-10 hours a day. your social life aside from the days off will be shot. and the days off are spent doing laundry and playing catch-up on life - don't neglect your fitness. since you're inside 8-10 hours a day, go to a gym and sweat for balance. otherwise you might suffer from burnout - save up for at least 3 months of joblessness after the bootcamp while you look for work - ask the bootcamp if they do interview prep. while it's cheating the system in some ways, it's extremely helpful for people who haven't been through the interview process. if you don't think well on your feet, or suffer test anxiety, this may be an issue - lastly, if she hasn't done any programming at all, it'd be prudent to sign up for a local junior college course, or udemy to see if she actually likes doing it. i have a friend who talks all day about joining a coding school, took a python course, and realized it's not for him. it's better than accumulating more educational debt
satysin 10y ago
Spend £10 on a Udemy (or wherever) course and see how she likes that. If she picks things up and enjoys it then maybe the boot camp will be a good idea or maybe she finds she can do it herself or maybe she finds she hates it all. For £10 you can't really complain whatever the outcome IMHO.
t4blox 10y ago
Why do you feel the need to stop her from going? She's not going to become a master at computers, but maybe it will spark an interest in the field. It seems like this is always the case with people either forcing coding onto people or trying to persuade people to not even touch a computer. Just let people do what they want.
fecak 10y ago
My answer would depend on several factors. Has she ever tried coding, and if so does she see herself enjoying it as something she'd be doing several hours a day? What is her reason for an interest in programming? Is it an interest in tech, solving big problems with tech, money, something else? Would she be OK knowing that the job search for a bootcamp grad with no prior coding experience may be rather challenging (many grads go to work for the bootcamp itself, which is mutually beneficial as it boost placement stats while also giving the grad a job)? How is her financial situation? Can she absorb a hit? Is she incredibly bright and dedicated to the point of potentially being able to enter the field based on n months of self-directed education for free (MOOCs, online tutorials, videos, books, etc)? The question is a bit more complex than it seems.
contingencies 10y ago
Great idea. Communicating about systems and their properties is a key programming skill, which is more likely to be gained learning in a social environment such as a web dev boot camp than solo. Success will require long solo hours, but I don't think social learning is ever a bad idea... especially when changing careers.
atsaloli 10y ago
Freecodecamp.com is free if price is an issue.
- oddlyaromatic 10y ago
  Really found the community and structure of freeCodeCamp to be amazing for me to make progress. The actual teaching is not very detailed- they show you a little but then intend that you learn to Google and use the documentation to find stuff out. I recommend having some other source of learning in parallel with FCC. Can also be free.
kapauldo 10y ago
Boot camp is a good supplement to college, not an alternative, so tell her to work hard and have fun, and ask lots of questions.
biznerd 10y ago
I did one. I HIGHLY suggest vetting the placement "statistics". For me, I just read 95% get a job, went to the open house, listened to a couple "rah rah" testimonials and did it. It was a big mistake. A friend of mine from the class estimated that only 30-40% of us got actual dev jobs. The rest are either in customer service at a tech company, sales or testing (keep in mind this is people who dropped $15k+ to do the bootcamp), back in our old industry or in the case of one, working at Trader Joes. I was under the impression that 95% get good jobs. If I had known only 30-40% did I would have never done the boot camp. How did they manipulate the numbers? I never dug deep but here are my thoughts: * to qualify as "actively looking" you can't have a job to support yourself. That's right you're supposed to not have an income while job searching, kinda hard when it can take more than six months. If you get a job, you get dropped from career support and your statistic gets placed in the "not actively looking" category * "industry related jobs". If you go to a dev boot camp, you want to be a dev. You're paying $15k to do it. A customer service job at a tech startup is better than nothing but you don't have to pay $15k to do it. Likewise for sales. As a positive point, all the females in our cohort got dev jobs, including the only one who actually failed the class. Startups are pretty aware of the gender discrepancy and actively looking to hire those with double x chromosomes. Not complaining about affirmative action, just wanted to give you as full picture as possible
- eagsalazar2 10y ago
  Things have changed over the last few years and what was true in 2013 is no longer true. In 2013, the few bootcamps that existed and the fewer cohorts they each had were much more selective and they were producing in total many fewer candidates. The result is that bootcamp grads were very high quality (albeit very junior) and they got snapped up quickly. In 2017 there are bootcampers everywhere flooding the market. So I'm not sure they are outright lying but maybe they are using data to market their programs that is out of date.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - klinskyc 10y ago
pcr0 10y ago
I would advise trying free/cheap lessons first. E.g. freecodecamp, Lynda, udemy, CS50x, etc.
watmough 10y ago
Try looking at the consultancy end of tech. Typically, if they like your face and grades, they'll put you though an internal bootcamp, or send you somewhere, at no cost to you. Starting salary should be maybe $70k+ and up for a new grad. This is a much better idea than dumping money into a bootcamp.
StClaire 10y ago
A friend of mine used to teach at one of those programs. He quit because he got sick of parroting placement numbers he knew were fraudulent. The ones who got good jobs were good applicants. They would have gotten the Dev job anyway. The ones who weren't strong got swept under the rug. Your cousin might do better taking a year of CS classes and working on outside projects
mikekchar 10y ago
We've hired a few people from bootcamps. I admit that I was a bit skeptical going in, but I am very happy with everyone we have hired from that direction. There is nothing in CS that you can't learn on your own and/or on the job. You do not need a school to teach you. Having said that, you need to want to learn this stuff and it is a long road. Decades after I graduated, I'm still learning new things (especially math -- since I sucked at it in school). So my first piece of advice: Realise that after a boot camp you will not know enough, nor have enough experience to really be qualified to do the job. Anybody who picks you up is taking a chance that you will grow into the job. Attitude is by far your biggest selling point. If you go in with a hunger for learning and infectious enthusiasm, you will be a benefit to your team, even while being under qualified. If you go in thinking, "I don't really know if I want to do this, but it seems like an easy job that pays well", just stop now. I really can't stress that enough. Don't pay thousands of dollars to go to a boot camp to see if you want to do this stuff. Like I said, you can boot your own camp trivially. Computer + Internet + passion for learning will get you there. A good boot camp can really help you focus and point you to efficient ways of learning, but it can't give you the drive you need to succeed. My second piece of advice is to experiment first. Finally, all of the people we have hired from bootcamps have had experience in other industries. Let me put it bluntly: They know how to show up to work every day and put in a full day's work. They know how to show up to meetings on time and pay attention. They know how to deal with difficult political situations. They know how to avoid being hung over on a weekday. Finally, they have experience being in a job that they hate and they have spent considerable amount of time and effort understanding what they want from a career. My final advice: Don't graduate from school and go straight to a boot camp, unless you know for sure that you missed the boat and are desperate to be a programmer. Get some experience in the job world. Save some money. Think critically about what you want from your career. Then if you still want to make the jump, go ahead. Like I said, computers and the internet are everywhere these days, so it's not going to stop you from learning on your own.
OJFord 10y ago
> As a positive point, all the females in our cohort got dev jobs, including the only one who actually failed the class. Startups are pretty aware of the gender discrepancy and actively looking to hire those with double x chromosomes. Not complaining about affirmative action, just wanted to give you as full picture as possible You should be complaining! Especially given the rest of your story. This kind of thing is such bull shit. Before you down-vote me: a man passed and now works at Trader Joe's; a woman failed and got a software engineering role. Reverse those genders, and if you're outraged, have a think about whether you should still be down-voting me.
- biznerd 10y ago
  He said his cousin was female so I just wanted to highlight a positive for her. But you bring up a good point.
- Kluny 10y ago
  Maybe the women just hustled harder. I know that was the case in the program I went through. 30 of us passed; 3 were women. All 3 women and about 20% of the men got good industry jobs. However, I and the other two women were hustling for jobs, sending resumes, networking and going to interviews 6 months before graduation. Most of the men, assuming they were telling the truth when I casually asked them about it, didn't even start to write their resumes until the resume-writing workshop during the last week of school. Of the men who got jobs, one was given a position by his brother who had a hip startup; 3 showed up to a FAST consulting recruiting event and all three got hired there; one already had a degree in software engineering and a job waiting for him at his old employer; and several others went back to their old jobs as well.
  - mannykannot 10y ago
    "One already had a degree in software engineering..." There's a whole other issue right there.
    - Kluny 10y ago
      You can conclude whatever you want from it, but in this case the gentleman in question had a good government job with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, where he still works, as far as I know. He left his job temporarily to take a 2-year programming diploma on top of his software engineering degree. I don't think he did it to get a job since he already had one. It was more that his whole department was on the chopping block under the previous federal administration, and he thought it would be wise to get off of their payroll for a couple of years to avoid losing his job altogether. As far as I can tell it worked, as the federal administration has changed and he still has his job. I promise, there wasn't any sexism involved.
ramses0 10y ago
Before going through a dev-bootcamp, I recommend (especially if you're a coder already) to get her through Learn Python The Hard Way. https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/ https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/ Best case it'll take less than a month (2 exercises per day, 52 exercises), is basically free, and if she's happy with everything at the end of it, she'll be FAR more prepared to jump feet-first into a dev bootcamp. I compare learning to program to learning a language. 99hrs of having French slapped across your face won't make you a native French speaker, it's a long road to proficiency and mastery. Neither will 99hrs of Programming make you a native "Programmer". However I'd pick someone who went through that 99hr drill over most people who hadn't even started.
- trymas 10y ago
  I could not resist... but do you want to confuse her with python2 vs python3? When python2 should be out of the question, even if it's default on macOS. Though to be fair the difference should be learned, but it shouldn't be promoted to learn python2 for beginners. It will just confuse them. Even though many years have passed, but I think soon many libraries and frameworks will not support python2 at all (e.g. Django's next version will not), any new code I write - I write it in python3 and never think about python2. The LPTHW is built for beginners in a sense, that it's easy to read and follow, though author is extremely __butthurt__[0] against python3 [1]. I guess it's the authors _shtick_ to be extremely opinionated, to a degree of incoherent blabber [1]. [0] sorry for my language [1] https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/nopython3.html https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/nopython3.html P.S. Though "Appendix A: Command Line Crash Course"[2] is probably one of the best promotions and intros into CLI .. and that is very useful to learn, instead of locking yourself as a beginner into some IDE. [2] https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/appendixa.html https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/appendixa.html
  - knopkop 10y ago
    https://learnpythonthehardway.org/python3/intro.html https://learnpythonthehardway.org/python3/intro.html
  - nip 10y ago
j45 10y ago
For beginners, it's critical to learn concepts of software development instead of the syntax memorization and regurgitation that seems popular to collect like scout badges. The fewer syntaxes one has to learn in the beginning, to do the most, the better. To keep a list to the minimum, I'd probably start with HTML, a bit of CSS, and then go to Javascript to teach web and then mobile development. I am not a day to day js framework/backend guy.
- everybodyknows 10y ago
  I hear you on that -- I've been looking for a path that starts with the best-structured languages, as vehicles for learning the more powerful concepts: static vs dynamic typing et al. So, Golang, Python, or Typescript. School in question is a bit behind the curve -- "PHP/MySQL".
  - j45 10y ago
    PHP/MySQL is fine to learn to build web apps too. The problem is when you have to learn 30 different things in some languages to create your own stack (Ruby, node, etc) for beginners.
cwp 10y ago
I'd tell her to do some work on her own before signing up. The internet is jam packed with courses, guides, tutorials and references for all the skills needed for web dev, for free. Pick a tutorial and work through it. Then dream up a really simple project—todo app, pet store, tick-tack-toe or whatever—and build it from scratch, using the same stack. Then with that under her belt, sign up for the boot camp. The advantages of this approach are: - she'll find out if this is something she really wants to do before plunking down thousands of dollars - with a bit of background knowledge, she'll be better able to absorb what's being taught at the bootcamp - she'll have a better idea of what she wants to specialize in and can select the right boot camp for her Also, find the community she wants to join. There are a gazillion places where web devs hang out online and talk shop. While doing her prep work she should seek out the places appropriate to the stack she's chosen and lurk. Stay engaged through the bootcamp and during her job search afterward. Finally, pay attention to open source. Not a lot of professions do their work out in the open like that, so take the opportunity to see how the sausage is made! Find the open source projects that these communities contribute to, and watch them do it. Follow the discussions on mailing lists, Github issues and pull requests. Look at the code and try to understand the criticism arguments. Ask questions. People are shockingly willing to help newbies who are trying to understand. The bottom line is, there is real value in getting an expert to teach her how to code, but the more work she puts in herself, before, during and after the bootcamp the more she'll get out of it. If she's looking to pay $15K and get a high-paying job in exchange, she'll just waste the money.
kwang88 10y ago
My company has hired several coding boot camp alumni; some directly from bootcamps, some after a coding bootcamp + some years of work as a dev. We've had good results and most of the grads I know have had positive experiences. It's important to note that coding bootcamps are not created remotely equally -- some have stringent application requirements, whereas many are essentially scams / chop shops. I strongly caution against the latter. In particular, at least one bootcamp that I know of only charges tuition after you get a job as a software engineer, and charges a % of your first year's salary. It's a really great way to align incentives between the bootcamp, students, and employers and I'm a particular fan of this program.
- everybodyknows 10y ago
  I'd be grateful for specific pointers on vetting the camps. The one in question is legally an LLC, with no industry sponsors, but some association with a local religious college. Interested to see your positive view on the percent of salary tuition arrangement. There are at least two such camps: in SF, and in Seattle.
  - kwang88 10y ago
    Have seen good results from App Academy (in NYC in particular) - they follow the business model that I mentioned above. I don't know the details of all the bootcamp alums on my team, and am also unfamiliar with the tuition structures of different bootcamps. My info is also about 2 years out of date. IMO these bootcamps are producing a basically undifferentiated product curriculum-wise (which, by the way can be learned via self-teaching on the internet). Only a few have real brand recognition. Drive, curiosity, raw horsepower, etc are a lot more important. For specific pointers: your cousin should speak to as many recent alumni of various programs as she can to ensure that she has a legit program on her hands. Speaking with hiring managers is a good bet as well; "I've never heard of that place" is bad; "That place is a scam" is worse. She should also ask what the pass/fail rate is for students in the program. High graduation rate + upfront payment is arguably bad (shows they're incentivized to just get you out the door). Best of luck!
aspencer8111 10y ago
I wouldn't be discouraging here or 'looking for alternatives'. I'd be congratulating her on entering a field with a low supply and high demand for talent. This industry pays very well and we need more female developers. So why would this be a bad choice? (rhetorical question - actually this may be a horrible choice, but keep reading) I completed an online coding bootcamp about 5 years ago and got a job almost immediately afterwards. I've since become a Lead Dev for a local SaaS company, a mentor at that same school I graduated from, and a part time curriculum contributor. This level of skepticism towards coding bootcamps is fair. I've seen some horror stories. But here is the thing: All failures involving more than 2 parties are usually the fault of both parties. Here is what I mean: I'm currently mentoring about 5 students. Out of those 5, 4 are doing incredibly well. They are picking up the concepts, putting them into practice, and showing true growth. 1 of them is struggling hard. What is the difference? Well, in my opinion the difference is motivation. The 1 that is struggling did well his first few months, but when it got hard, he just wanted to start applying for jobs with what little he had learned. He didn't want to put in the work to finish his education. He was solely focused on the $$$ and not the thrill of solving problems with code. So how could she decide if she will actually enjoy learning to code vs become someone that is only excited b/c of the money? Easy - try the free/cheap stuff first: 1. Codecademy.com 2. Codeschool.com 3. Lynda.com 4. Learn_____TheHardWay.com The list goes on for a while. Tell her to sign up for one or two of the courses here and build something from start to finish. Nothing major. A todo list webapp, simple blog, or the like will do. Then ask here: "Can you see yourself doing this 8 hours per day/5 days per week? If she can give you an honest 'yes', then offer her all the support you can give. If she hesitates, have her do more of the cheap/free stuff till it is clear. If it is a no, then it is a no. Hope this helps. Sorry for the wall of text.
convolvatron 10y ago
tell her to get a real job - that she can count on. sous chef. turbine maintenance mechanic. accountant.
- marak830 10y ago
  As a chef, please only people with passion, we have enough mediocre chef's, and really the pay is shit.
pfarnsworth 10y ago
Someone I know graduated from Hackbright, the bootcamp for women that has a decent reputation but also fairly expensive. It's been a couple of years and she hasn't gotten a programming job, I don't even mention it anymore. So your mileage might vary. I'm deeply skeptical of anyone from a bootcamp, to be honest. I think if you can really learn something and get your foot int the door with a small startup, then it opens the doors, but it's also hard without signficant amount of dedication.
- johns 10y ago
  In defense of Hackbright, I have hired multiple grads from there and had we had the room, hired more great candidates we talked to and all were great. Consistently produced good candidates. Just like any class though, there's going to be a distribution in results.
joshmn 10y ago
https://www.railstutorial.org/ https://www.railstutorial.org/ it's free, self-paced, with great instruction and lots of lectures/discussion scattered throughout the internet. support hartl :)
campythrowaway 10y ago
She should not go in cold. She should work through "Learn Python the Hard Way" or Chris Pine's Learn to Program first, at least, before committing to something like this. I did a bootcamp some time ago. Everyone who came in completely cold failed the program. Standards now might be such that she survives the program, but she will be unhirable. If it's a finishing school after putting in much work on her own, then maybe it makes sense. Assume every number you see related to job placement to be fraudulent at some level. Getting a job coming out is likely to be difficult - the market is saturated with bootcamp grads. All that being said, if she finds out she really, really likes programming before starting the bootcamp, puts in months of work beforehand, and is willing to put in thousands of hours outside of work in the years that follow, then go for it.
- ghaff 10y ago
  No familiarity with bootcamps specifically but, even with more traditional CS degree programs, this seems to be good advice. I don't program professionally but have done some on the side for a long time. Even checking out some of the "Intro to Programming" MOOCs from better institutions, it was pretty obvious to me that I'd have been utterly overwhelmed going into any of these cold as a student. If even a text editor or a command line is a new experience, there's just too much foundational knowledge/experience that has to be gained to move forward with what you're actually supposed to be learning. (I know there have been efforts at places like CMU to teach intro courses that are actually real intro courses.)
ben_jones 10y ago
I just want to point out that anyone giving advice on this issue, as with anything else, will have their own personal biases. For example HN has a high percentage of startups and "bleeding edge" tech companies which may value skillsets and credentials differently then say a midwest enterprise software company. If your cousin needs advice gaining entry to midwest enterprise companies, it may be more valuable to pose this question locally or else risk giving the wrong advice to your cousin.
vonklaus 10y ago
I did one and had a bad experience; I still think they are worthwhile. Much like colleges the rigor varies a lot BUT unlike colleges you're class will have a massive impact on your educatoion. I studied a lot before I went in, it is highly recommended. Some other students struggled because they did not do much prep. Some students were annoyingly inquisitive and volunteered off-topic stuff frequently, eating into class time. Have a capstone project or goal in mind when going in and try to do some pared down version for a final project(nearly all I have researched have several projects). If you (op) can, help her get familiar w/ a dev environment. Explain things in depth and assume little. I was learning the absolute basics and someone introduced me to git, rails, terminal, scaffolding and ruby over a 10min convo. Obviously, it is great to dive in, but finding out what is important and how things work is important. Show her text editors, basic command line, git ect. Resources like hacker news, stack overflow, and maybe shell into an AWS instance. I think they can be great, but they require a lot of prep, and a lot of research
typetypetype 10y ago
Tell her she should look at it as a way to beef up the "skills" part of her resume and also help her build a personal portfolio. She will not be handed a job upon finishing, but will have a better resume.
mping 10y ago
Grit your teeth and don't give up. If the person is a she, just get a hard skin, don't let anything affect her resolve until she knows for sure if she wants to code or not.
yahyaheee 10y ago
If she wants to be a software engineer, tell her to teach herself. I think the reason why many of the graduates don't get jobs is because Tech is really hard, and almost all of it you have to figure out yourself to be a good engineer. A lot of the boot camp attendees are the type that need to be taught, it actually looks better if you teach yourself. It shows your independence and drive, which are very hirable qualities in Tech. That said a good mentor can go a long way too (there are plenty of those for free as well) :)
- scrapcode 10y ago
  I've been developing for 12+ years in many different languages & frameworks. I don't code much anymore due to having to support myself financially, but I certainly didn't find that anyone was impressed with the fact that I taught myself. I never got an offer and likewise ended up choosing the boring but well paying supervisor position in an unrelated field.
  - yahyaheee 10y ago
    I think that probably has more to do with how you market yourself. Me and two of my friends all taught ourselves and all of us work on major top level projects now only about 3 years later. I think my point is that there is a type of person that makes a really good software engineer and those types of people typically don't need a coding bootcamp. If you market yourself as having found your passion and built a lot of awesome stuff on your own I guarantee that you will have work.
throwme_1980 10y ago
waste of money, invest in either getting a new gear(high-end laptop, licenses etc...) or a recognised qualification or a cert
jtcond13 10y ago
I recommend John Guttag's Intro to Computation and Programming Using Python to people interested in starting to code, as the accompanying video lectures are available on MIT OCW and the book itself is enjoyable to read. That book (+ the Django tutorial) might be a good way to get started before doing a boot camp. As others have pointed out, there are other ways to learn the material, but it may be that the 'career day' activities, etc. are worth the price of tuition.
ravenstine 10y ago
Dev Bootcamp circa 2013 alumnus here. I can't speak for how bootcamps are now, or the state in which DBC exists in 2017, but I can say that my cohort(s) were made up of lots of men and women and people ranging from border-line genius level to those with no programming experience. Those who came out and landed careers were the same individuals who had the drive and the passion, plain & simple. A person looking to be handed knowledge on a silver platter, eventually leading to a golden key to land a job, will be sadly mistaken no matter what kind of school they go to. As others have said, it would be good for her to start learning to program on her own so she can see if she actually has any interest. It will sound cruel for me to say this but, if she hasn't already taken the initiative herself, the chances are low that she's cut out for it. Note that what I said just now is strictly my opinion. It certainly doesn't mean it's too late for her to begin now, but the drive is super important. This is coming from someone who went into a field knowing very little about it but expecting that passing the courses was going to land them a high-paying job. I switched to programming because I was forced to look in my heart and decide whether or not I was going to struggle to bestow bad art on to the world(as if there isn't too much already) for some short-lived glory. Plus I was already programming and already had the drive; I just needed reality and some good people to give me a good kick in the right direction for me. Determining the legitimacy of a boot camp is difficult. I don't know that you really can. But what I got out of my boot camp was not so much an education but the space and the resources to accelerate my process into taking a full dive into web development, Agile, etc. On a technical level, there's almost nothing that a boot camp does that you can't get out of an online course. Heck, you could form your own "boot camp" with a Meetup group and spend maybe 1/100 the amount you'd spend on a boot camp tuition. A person has to go into a boot camp expecting a space, resources, and some leadership, rather than a concrete curriculum. At the end of the day, you can work for a company and not even include your education on your resume so long as the work that you have done stands out.
thisisforyou 10y ago
Taking for granted most of the other answers here ('make sure she has tried and likes coding' et c.): Have her look up reviews of the program on https://www.coursereport.com/ https://www.coursereport.com/ and www.switchup.org. Have her visit local meetups and conferences, there will surely be students/grads there that she can talk to and can get eyewitness reports from. Have her ask around to disinterested third parties that have had contact with the program and see what their appraisal of the program is. Have her contact the program and see if they will provide contacts to grads that she can talk to (while they may be biased, a 'yes' is much better that a 'no'). (Full disclosure: I went to a bootcamp and got a good job very soon afterwards which I have had for a year. True, some programs are shady, but these seem to shut down quickly. A bit of research seems like all that needs to be done to make a decision and if it works for her there is no reason to worry.)
bokglobule 10y ago
Actually I think this self-learning approach is a great example of what it takes to be a great developer regardless of background (or formal training). http://signaltower.co/jennifer-dewalt/ http://signaltower.co/jennifer-dewalt/ She built one project each day for 180 days learning a bit more each day. She chronicled her mistakes and successes. HN had a post on it at the time and the majority of developers that responded were very supportive.
vmorgulis 10y ago
To try FreeCodeCamp first: https://www.freecodecamp.com/ https://www.freecodecamp.com/
alistproducer2 10y ago
Why not just apply to a master's program? She can probably get a dev job while enrolled. At least then she'll get a better signaling artifact than a boot camp certificate and probably spend less doing it.

She's a recent grad with an international relations major. Now wants to go to a local web dev boot camp, which looks to me just more-or-less legit. Any alternative ideas?

smilesnd 10y ago

Mattering your location and whats around I would advise meetups and/or hackerspaces. It would give your cousin a good feel for the local environment. As well she might meet some people that try the boot camp out. If she does do the boot camp I would advise her to do some self study before hand. These boot camps try to cram as much info they can into a short period of time. She would probably get more out of the boot camp if she tries to learn coding on her own first. There is a ton of free resources she can try before hand.

SN76477 10y ago

Spend 80 hours on Lynda.com first. Then decide if coding is really where you want to be.

jasonthevillain 10y ago

Cool! I usually suggest people pick up a book and try learning enough to build something simple first so they get a feel for what's involved and whether they like it.

mceoin 10y ago

(Foreword: I went through a bootcamp, had a positive experience). The only reason not to go through a bootcamp, presuming it is reputable, is price sensitivity. They offer better value than a college degree (salary offer wise, both for technical and non-technical roles in tech industry), accelerate the pace of early-stage learning, and create healthy habits that are distinct to programming (e.g. tests, debugging, pseudo-code). Long list of positive reasons here, as long as mindset going in isn't "I'm going to be a developer in 9 weeks" (true only on the loosest definition of the word).

brianwawok 10y ago

Read a coding book first, see if she has a nack?

soneca 10y ago

I would say: go for it! Why not? I don't actually get what's the doubt.

seattle_spring 10y ago
"Why not?" Well, I might start at the $10-$15k price tag.

hoodoof 10y ago

Why do you need alternative ideas? You could just let her go to what she wants to. We technology people seem to have this built in need to get people to try other things than what they want to do. It's a form of controlling behaviour.

yorwba 10y ago
Would you say the same if she wanted to go to an expensive acting workshop that promises she will land a job with Hollywood in just 12 weeks? (And that might not even be a lie, since someone needs to be the extra that gets shot in the first 5 seconds.) Not saying all or even most coding boot camps are like that, but based on my reading of HN submissions, some definitely do overpromise and underdeliver. Finding potentially more fitting ways of getting into the field could simply be helping out.
- fuzzyninja 10y ago
  A sincere question that I have often: what if the jobs these people land (and that many that we here do) are _not_ Hollywoodian at all? What if that does indicate that a lot of the things we can do can be done by someone with this level of experience and aptitude? Related: https://www.wired.com/2017/02/programming-is-the-new-blue-collar-job/ https://www.wired.com/2017/02/programming-is-the-new-blue-co...
true_religion 10y ago
Having alternatives is always a good thing. Plus being a 'young' cousin, they have graduated so they are 18 or 22 and can judge alternatives for themselves.
everybodyknows 10y ago
I need alternative ideas because I was asked what I thought about the school in question. Not sure it would be proper netiquette to mention the name.

OJFord 10y ago

> Any alternative ideas? From the comments so far, I think there's some confusion about what you mean by this. Are you trying to dissuade her? Motivate her? You're neutral, but asking for suggestions of things she might do to satiate coding desires other than a 'boot camp'?

everybodyknows 10y ago
A few months previous I suggested online self-instruction, but didn't hear back on the idea. Perhaps some people prefer the social structure of a classroom for learning.

whytaka 10y ago

Try pyschools.com or codeschool.com and see how much she gets it on her own. I truly believe being a programmer is a third logical intuition another third resourcefulness, and lastly discipline. She has to be able to demonstrate them all and the websites I pointed to (especially the former) will certainly test her.

et-al 10y ago

Which one? Key things are: - you get out what you put in. attending a boot camp is not a guarantee you'll land well-paying job. you have to demonstrate to a new employer you've mastered the skills to help their company - depending on the bootcamp, it will take 8-10 hours a day. your social life aside from the days off will be shot. and the days off are spent doing laundry and playing catch-up on life - don't neglect your fitness. since you're inside 8-10 hours a day, go to a gym and sweat for balance. otherwise you might suffer from burnout - save up for at least 3 months of joblessness after the bootcamp while you look for work - ask the bootcamp if they do interview prep. while it's cheating the system in some ways, it's extremely helpful for people who haven't been through the interview process. if you don't think well on your feet, or suffer test anxiety, this may be an issue - lastly, if she hasn't done any programming at all, it'd be prudent to sign up for a local junior college course, or udemy to see if she actually likes doing it. i have a friend who talks all day about joining a coding school, took a python course, and realized it's not for him. it's better than accumulating more educational debt

satysin 10y ago

Spend £10 on a Udemy (or wherever) course and see how she likes that. If she picks things up and enjoys it then maybe the boot camp will be a good idea or maybe she finds she can do it herself or maybe she finds she hates it all. For £10 you can't really complain whatever the outcome IMHO.

t4blox 10y ago

Why do you feel the need to stop her from going? She's not going to become a master at computers, but maybe it will spark an interest in the field. It seems like this is always the case with people either forcing coding onto people or trying to persuade people to not even touch a computer. Just let people do what they want.

fecak 10y ago

My answer would depend on several factors. Has she ever tried coding, and if so does she see herself enjoying it as something she'd be doing several hours a day? What is her reason for an interest in programming? Is it an interest in tech, solving big problems with tech, money, something else? Would she be OK knowing that the job search for a bootcamp grad with no prior coding experience may be rather challenging (many grads go to work for the bootcamp itself, which is mutually beneficial as it boost placement stats while also giving the grad a job)? How is her financial situation? Can she absorb a hit? Is she incredibly bright and dedicated to the point of potentially being able to enter the field based on n months of self-directed education for free (MOOCs, online tutorials, videos, books, etc)? The question is a bit more complex than it seems.

contingencies 10y ago

Great idea. Communicating about systems and their properties is a key programming skill, which is more likely to be gained learning in a social environment such as a web dev boot camp than solo. Success will require long solo hours, but I don't think social learning is ever a bad idea... especially when changing careers.

atsaloli 10y ago

Freecodecamp.com is free if price is an issue.

oddlyaromatic 10y ago
Really found the community and structure of freeCodeCamp to be amazing for me to make progress. The actual teaching is not very detailed- they show you a little but then intend that you learn to Google and use the documentation to find stuff out. I recommend having some other source of learning in parallel with FCC. Can also be free.

kapauldo 10y ago

Boot camp is a good supplement to college, not an alternative, so tell her to work hard and have fun, and ask lots of questions.

biznerd 10y ago

I did one. I HIGHLY suggest vetting the placement "statistics". For me, I just read 95% get a job, went to the open house, listened to a couple "rah rah" testimonials and did it. It was a big mistake. A friend of mine from the class estimated that only 30-40% of us got actual dev jobs. The rest are either in customer service at a tech company, sales or testing (keep in mind this is people who dropped $15k+ to do the bootcamp), back in our old industry or in the case of one, working at Trader Joes. I was under the impression that 95% get good jobs. If I had known only 30-40% did I would have never done the boot camp. How did they manipulate the numbers? I never dug deep but here are my thoughts: * to qualify as "actively looking" you can't have a job to support yourself. That's right you're supposed to not have an income while job searching, kinda hard when it can take more than six months. If you get a job, you get dropped from career support and your statistic gets placed in the "not actively looking" category * "industry related jobs". If you go to a dev boot camp, you want to be a dev. You're paying $15k to do it. A customer service job at a tech startup is better than nothing but you don't have to pay $15k to do it. Likewise for sales. As a positive point, all the females in our cohort got dev jobs, including the only one who actually failed the class. Startups are pretty aware of the gender discrepancy and actively looking to hire those with double x chromosomes. Not complaining about affirmative action, just wanted to give you as full picture as possible

eagsalazar2 10y ago
Things have changed over the last few years and what was true in 2013 is no longer true. In 2013, the few bootcamps that existed and the fewer cohorts they each had were much more selective and they were producing in total many fewer candidates. The result is that bootcamp grads were very high quality (albeit very junior) and they got snapped up quickly. In 2017 there are bootcampers everywhere flooding the market. So I'm not sure they are outright lying but maybe they are using data to market their programs that is out of date.
- deleted 10y ago
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- klinskyc 10y ago

pcr0 10y ago

I would advise trying free/cheap lessons first. E.g. freecodecamp, Lynda, udemy, CS50x, etc.

watmough 10y ago

Try looking at the consultancy end of tech. Typically, if they like your face and grades, they'll put you though an internal bootcamp, or send you somewhere, at no cost to you. Starting salary should be maybe $70k+ and up for a new grad. This is a much better idea than dumping money into a bootcamp.

StClaire 10y ago

A friend of mine used to teach at one of those programs. He quit because he got sick of parroting placement numbers he knew were fraudulent. The ones who got good jobs were good applicants. They would have gotten the Dev job anyway. The ones who weren't strong got swept under the rug. Your cousin might do better taking a year of CS classes and working on outside projects

mikekchar 10y ago

We've hired a few people from bootcamps. I admit that I was a bit skeptical going in, but I am very happy with everyone we have hired from that direction. There is nothing in CS that you can't learn on your own and/or on the job. You do not need a school to teach you. Having said that, you need to want to learn this stuff and it is a long road. Decades after I graduated, I'm still learning new things (especially math -- since I sucked at it in school). So my first piece of advice: Realise that after a boot camp you will not know enough, nor have enough experience to really be qualified to do the job. Anybody who picks you up is taking a chance that you will grow into the job. Attitude is by far your biggest selling point. If you go in with a hunger for learning and infectious enthusiasm, you will be a benefit to your team, even while being under qualified. If you go in thinking, "I don't really know if I want to do this, but it seems like an easy job that pays well", just stop now. I really can't stress that enough. Don't pay thousands of dollars to go to a boot camp to see if you want to do this stuff. Like I said, you can boot your own camp trivially. Computer + Internet + passion for learning will get you there. A good boot camp can really help you focus and point you to efficient ways of learning, but it can't give you the drive you need to succeed. My second piece of advice is to experiment first. Finally, all of the people we have hired from bootcamps have had experience in other industries. Let me put it bluntly: They know how to show up to work every day and put in a full day's work. They know how to show up to meetings on time and pay attention. They know how to deal with difficult political situations. They know how to avoid being hung over on a weekday. Finally, they have experience being in a job that they hate and they have spent considerable amount of time and effort understanding what they want from a career. My final advice: Don't graduate from school and go straight to a boot camp, unless you know for sure that you missed the boat and are desperate to be a programmer. Get some experience in the job world. Save some money. Think critically about what you want from your career. Then if you still want to make the jump, go ahead. Like I said, computers and the internet are everywhere these days, so it's not going to stop you from learning on your own.

OJFord 10y ago

> As a positive point, all the females in our cohort got dev jobs, including the only one who actually failed the class. Startups are pretty aware of the gender discrepancy and actively looking to hire those with double x chromosomes. Not complaining about affirmative action, just wanted to give you as full picture as possible You should be complaining! Especially given the rest of your story. This kind of thing is such bull shit. Before you down-vote me: a man passed and now works at Trader Joe's; a woman failed and got a software engineering role. Reverse those genders, and if you're outraged, have a think about whether you should still be down-voting me.

biznerd 10y ago
He said his cousin was female so I just wanted to highlight a positive for her. But you bring up a good point.
Kluny 10y ago
Maybe the women just hustled harder. I know that was the case in the program I went through. 30 of us passed; 3 were women. All 3 women and about 20% of the men got good industry jobs. However, I and the other two women were hustling for jobs, sending resumes, networking and going to interviews 6 months before graduation. Most of the men, assuming they were telling the truth when I casually asked them about it, didn't even start to write their resumes until the resume-writing workshop during the last week of school. Of the men who got jobs, one was given a position by his brother who had a hip startup; 3 showed up to a FAST consulting recruiting event and all three got hired there; one already had a degree in software engineering and a job waiting for him at his old employer; and several others went back to their old jobs as well.
- mannykannot 10y ago
  "One already had a degree in software engineering..." There's a whole other issue right there.
  - Kluny 10y ago
    You can conclude whatever you want from it, but in this case the gentleman in question had a good government job with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, where he still works, as far as I know. He left his job temporarily to take a 2-year programming diploma on top of his software engineering degree. I don't think he did it to get a job since he already had one. It was more that his whole department was on the chopping block under the previous federal administration, and he thought it would be wise to get off of their payroll for a couple of years to avoid losing his job altogether. As far as I can tell it worked, as the federal administration has changed and he still has his job. I promise, there wasn't any sexism involved.

ramses0 10y ago

Before going through a dev-bootcamp, I recommend (especially if you're a coder already) to get her through Learn Python The Hard Way. https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/ https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/ Best case it'll take less than a month (2 exercises per day, 52 exercises), is basically free, and if she's happy with everything at the end of it, she'll be FAR more prepared to jump feet-first into a dev bootcamp. I compare learning to program to learning a language. 99hrs of having French slapped across your face won't make you a native French speaker, it's a long road to proficiency and mastery. Neither will 99hrs of Programming make you a native "Programmer". However I'd pick someone who went through that 99hr drill over most people who hadn't even started.

trymas 10y ago
I could not resist... but do you want to confuse her with python2 vs python3? When python2 should be out of the question, even if it's default on macOS. Though to be fair the difference should be learned, but it shouldn't be promoted to learn python2 for beginners. It will just confuse them. Even though many years have passed, but I think soon many libraries and frameworks will not support python2 at all (e.g. Django's next version will not), any new code I write - I write it in python3 and never think about python2. The LPTHW is built for beginners in a sense, that it's easy to read and follow, though author is extremely __butthurt__[0] against python3 [1]. I guess it's the authors _shtick_ to be extremely opinionated, to a degree of incoherent blabber [1]. [0] sorry for my language [1] https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/nopython3.html https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/nopython3.html P.S. Though "Appendix A: Command Line Crash Course"[2] is probably one of the best promotions and intros into CLI .. and that is very useful to learn, instead of locking yourself as a beginner into some IDE. [2] https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/appendixa.html https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/appendixa.html
- knopkop 10y ago
  https://learnpythonthehardway.org/python3/intro.html https://learnpythonthehardway.org/python3/intro.html
- nip 10y ago

j45 10y ago

For beginners, it's critical to learn concepts of software development instead of the syntax memorization and regurgitation that seems popular to collect like scout badges. The fewer syntaxes one has to learn in the beginning, to do the most, the better. To keep a list to the minimum, I'd probably start with HTML, a bit of CSS, and then go to Javascript to teach web and then mobile development. I am not a day to day js framework/backend guy.

everybodyknows 10y ago
I hear you on that -- I've been looking for a path that starts with the best-structured languages, as vehicles for learning the more powerful concepts: static vs dynamic typing et al. So, Golang, Python, or Typescript. School in question is a bit behind the curve -- "PHP/MySQL".
- j45 10y ago
  PHP/MySQL is fine to learn to build web apps too. The problem is when you have to learn 30 different things in some languages to create your own stack (Ruby, node, etc) for beginners.

cwp 10y ago

I'd tell her to do some work on her own before signing up. The internet is jam packed with courses, guides, tutorials and references for all the skills needed for web dev, for free. Pick a tutorial and work through it. Then dream up a really simple project—todo app, pet store, tick-tack-toe or whatever—and build it from scratch, using the same stack. Then with that under her belt, sign up for the boot camp. The advantages of this approach are: - she'll find out if this is something she really wants to do before plunking down thousands of dollars - with a bit of background knowledge, she'll be better able to absorb what's being taught at the bootcamp - she'll have a better idea of what she wants to specialize in and can select the right boot camp for her Also, find the community she wants to join. There are a gazillion places where web devs hang out online and talk shop. While doing her prep work she should seek out the places appropriate to the stack she's chosen and lurk. Stay engaged through the bootcamp and during her job search afterward. Finally, pay attention to open source. Not a lot of professions do their work out in the open like that, so take the opportunity to see how the sausage is made! Find the open source projects that these communities contribute to, and watch them do it. Follow the discussions on mailing lists, Github issues and pull requests. Look at the code and try to understand the criticism arguments. Ask questions. People are shockingly willing to help newbies who are trying to understand. The bottom line is, there is real value in getting an expert to teach her how to code, but the more work she puts in herself, before, during and after the bootcamp the more she'll get out of it. If she's looking to pay $15K and get a high-paying job in exchange, she'll just waste the money.

kwang88 10y ago

My company has hired several coding boot camp alumni; some directly from bootcamps, some after a coding bootcamp + some years of work as a dev. We've had good results and most of the grads I know have had positive experiences. It's important to note that coding bootcamps are not created remotely equally -- some have stringent application requirements, whereas many are essentially scams / chop shops. I strongly caution against the latter. In particular, at least one bootcamp that I know of only charges tuition after you get a job as a software engineer, and charges a % of your first year's salary. It's a really great way to align incentives between the bootcamp, students, and employers and I'm a particular fan of this program.

everybodyknows 10y ago
I'd be grateful for specific pointers on vetting the camps. The one in question is legally an LLC, with no industry sponsors, but some association with a local religious college. Interested to see your positive view on the percent of salary tuition arrangement. There are at least two such camps: in SF, and in Seattle.
- kwang88 10y ago
  Have seen good results from App Academy (in NYC in particular) - they follow the business model that I mentioned above. I don't know the details of all the bootcamp alums on my team, and am also unfamiliar with the tuition structures of different bootcamps. My info is also about 2 years out of date. IMO these bootcamps are producing a basically undifferentiated product curriculum-wise (which, by the way can be learned via self-teaching on the internet). Only a few have real brand recognition. Drive, curiosity, raw horsepower, etc are a lot more important. For specific pointers: your cousin should speak to as many recent alumni of various programs as she can to ensure that she has a legit program on her hands. Speaking with hiring managers is a good bet as well; "I've never heard of that place" is bad; "That place is a scam" is worse. She should also ask what the pass/fail rate is for students in the program. High graduation rate + upfront payment is arguably bad (shows they're incentivized to just get you out the door). Best of luck!

aspencer8111 10y ago

I wouldn't be discouraging here or 'looking for alternatives'. I'd be congratulating her on entering a field with a low supply and high demand for talent. This industry pays very well and we need more female developers. So why would this be a bad choice? (rhetorical question - actually this may be a horrible choice, but keep reading) I completed an online coding bootcamp about 5 years ago and got a job almost immediately afterwards. I've since become a Lead Dev for a local SaaS company, a mentor at that same school I graduated from, and a part time curriculum contributor. This level of skepticism towards coding bootcamps is fair. I've seen some horror stories. But here is the thing: All failures involving more than 2 parties are usually the fault of both parties. Here is what I mean: I'm currently mentoring about 5 students. Out of those 5, 4 are doing incredibly well. They are picking up the concepts, putting them into practice, and showing true growth. 1 of them is struggling hard. What is the difference? Well, in my opinion the difference is motivation. The 1 that is struggling did well his first few months, but when it got hard, he just wanted to start applying for jobs with what little he had learned. He didn't want to put in the work to finish his education. He was solely focused on the $$$ and not the thrill of solving problems with code. So how could she decide if she will actually enjoy learning to code vs become someone that is only excited b/c of the money? Easy - try the free/cheap stuff first: 1. Codecademy.com 2. Codeschool.com 3. Lynda.com 4. Learn_____TheHardWay.com The list goes on for a while. Tell her to sign up for one or two of the courses here and build something from start to finish. Nothing major. A todo list webapp, simple blog, or the like will do. Then ask here: "Can you see yourself doing this 8 hours per day/5 days per week? If she can give you an honest 'yes', then offer her all the support you can give. If she hesitates, have her do more of the cheap/free stuff till it is clear. If it is a no, then it is a no. Hope this helps. Sorry for the wall of text.

convolvatron 10y ago

tell her to get a real job - that she can count on. sous chef. turbine maintenance mechanic. accountant.

marak830 10y ago
As a chef, please only people with passion, we have enough mediocre chef's, and really the pay is shit.

pfarnsworth 10y ago

Someone I know graduated from Hackbright, the bootcamp for women that has a decent reputation but also fairly expensive. It's been a couple of years and she hasn't gotten a programming job, I don't even mention it anymore. So your mileage might vary. I'm deeply skeptical of anyone from a bootcamp, to be honest. I think if you can really learn something and get your foot int the door with a small startup, then it opens the doors, but it's also hard without signficant amount of dedication.

johns 10y ago
In defense of Hackbright, I have hired multiple grads from there and had we had the room, hired more great candidates we talked to and all were great. Consistently produced good candidates. Just like any class though, there's going to be a distribution in results.

joshmn 10y ago

https://www.railstutorial.org/ https://www.railstutorial.org/ it's free, self-paced, with great instruction and lots of lectures/discussion scattered throughout the internet. support hartl :)

campythrowaway 10y ago

She should not go in cold. She should work through "Learn Python the Hard Way" or Chris Pine's Learn to Program first, at least, before committing to something like this. I did a bootcamp some time ago. Everyone who came in completely cold failed the program. Standards now might be such that she survives the program, but she will be unhirable. If it's a finishing school after putting in much work on her own, then maybe it makes sense. Assume every number you see related to job placement to be fraudulent at some level. Getting a job coming out is likely to be difficult - the market is saturated with bootcamp grads. All that being said, if she finds out she really, really likes programming before starting the bootcamp, puts in months of work beforehand, and is willing to put in thousands of hours outside of work in the years that follow, then go for it.

ghaff 10y ago
No familiarity with bootcamps specifically but, even with more traditional CS degree programs, this seems to be good advice. I don't program professionally but have done some on the side for a long time. Even checking out some of the "Intro to Programming" MOOCs from better institutions, it was pretty obvious to me that I'd have been utterly overwhelmed going into any of these cold as a student. If even a text editor or a command line is a new experience, there's just too much foundational knowledge/experience that has to be gained to move forward with what you're actually supposed to be learning. (I know there have been efforts at places like CMU to teach intro courses that are actually real intro courses.)

ben_jones 10y ago

I just want to point out that anyone giving advice on this issue, as with anything else, will have their own personal biases. For example HN has a high percentage of startups and "bleeding edge" tech companies which may value skillsets and credentials differently then say a midwest enterprise software company. If your cousin needs advice gaining entry to midwest enterprise companies, it may be more valuable to pose this question locally or else risk giving the wrong advice to your cousin.

vonklaus 10y ago

I did one and had a bad experience; I still think they are worthwhile. Much like colleges the rigor varies a lot BUT unlike colleges you're class will have a massive impact on your educatoion. I studied a lot before I went in, it is highly recommended. Some other students struggled because they did not do much prep. Some students were annoyingly inquisitive and volunteered off-topic stuff frequently, eating into class time. Have a capstone project or goal in mind when going in and try to do some pared down version for a final project(nearly all I have researched have several projects). If you (op) can, help her get familiar w/ a dev environment. Explain things in depth and assume little. I was learning the absolute basics and someone introduced me to git, rails, terminal, scaffolding and ruby over a 10min convo. Obviously, it is great to dive in, but finding out what is important and how things work is important. Show her text editors, basic command line, git ect. Resources like hacker news, stack overflow, and maybe shell into an AWS instance. I think they can be great, but they require a lot of prep, and a lot of research

typetypetype 10y ago

Tell her she should look at it as a way to beef up the "skills" part of her resume and also help her build a personal portfolio. She will not be handed a job upon finishing, but will have a better resume.

mping 10y ago

Grit your teeth and don't give up. If the person is a she, just get a hard skin, don't let anything affect her resolve until she knows for sure if she wants to code or not.

yahyaheee 10y ago

If she wants to be a software engineer, tell her to teach herself. I think the reason why many of the graduates don't get jobs is because Tech is really hard, and almost all of it you have to figure out yourself to be a good engineer. A lot of the boot camp attendees are the type that need to be taught, it actually looks better if you teach yourself. It shows your independence and drive, which are very hirable qualities in Tech. That said a good mentor can go a long way too (there are plenty of those for free as well) :)

scrapcode 10y ago
I've been developing for 12+ years in many different languages & frameworks. I don't code much anymore due to having to support myself financially, but I certainly didn't find that anyone was impressed with the fact that I taught myself. I never got an offer and likewise ended up choosing the boring but well paying supervisor position in an unrelated field.
- yahyaheee 10y ago
  I think that probably has more to do with how you market yourself. Me and two of my friends all taught ourselves and all of us work on major top level projects now only about 3 years later. I think my point is that there is a type of person that makes a really good software engineer and those types of people typically don't need a coding bootcamp. If you market yourself as having found your passion and built a lot of awesome stuff on your own I guarantee that you will have work.

throwme_1980 10y ago

waste of money, invest in either getting a new gear(high-end laptop, licenses etc...) or a recognised qualification or a cert

jtcond13 10y ago

I recommend John Guttag's Intro to Computation and Programming Using Python to people interested in starting to code, as the accompanying video lectures are available on MIT OCW and the book itself is enjoyable to read. That book (+ the Django tutorial) might be a good way to get started before doing a boot camp. As others have pointed out, there are other ways to learn the material, but it may be that the 'career day' activities, etc. are worth the price of tuition.

ravenstine 10y ago

Dev Bootcamp circa 2013 alumnus here. I can't speak for how bootcamps are now, or the state in which DBC exists in 2017, but I can say that my cohort(s) were made up of lots of men and women and people ranging from border-line genius level to those with no programming experience. Those who came out and landed careers were the same individuals who had the drive and the passion, plain & simple. A person looking to be handed knowledge on a silver platter, eventually leading to a golden key to land a job, will be sadly mistaken no matter what kind of school they go to. As others have said, it would be good for her to start learning to program on her own so she can see if she actually has any interest. It will sound cruel for me to say this but, if she hasn't already taken the initiative herself, the chances are low that she's cut out for it. Note that what I said just now is strictly my opinion. It certainly doesn't mean it's too late for her to begin now, but the drive is super important. This is coming from someone who went into a field knowing very little about it but expecting that passing the courses was going to land them a high-paying job. I switched to programming because I was forced to look in my heart and decide whether or not I was going to struggle to bestow bad art on to the world(as if there isn't too much already) for some short-lived glory. Plus I was already programming and already had the drive; I just needed reality and some good people to give me a good kick in the right direction for me. Determining the legitimacy of a boot camp is difficult. I don't know that you really can. But what I got out of my boot camp was not so much an education but the space and the resources to accelerate my process into taking a full dive into web development, Agile, etc. On a technical level, there's almost nothing that a boot camp does that you can't get out of an online course. Heck, you could form your own "boot camp" with a Meetup group and spend maybe 1/100 the amount you'd spend on a boot camp tuition. A person has to go into a boot camp expecting a space, resources, and some leadership, rather than a concrete curriculum. At the end of the day, you can work for a company and not even include your education on your resume so long as the work that you have done stands out.

thisisforyou 10y ago

Taking for granted most of the other answers here ('make sure she has tried and likes coding' et c.): Have her look up reviews of the program on https://www.coursereport.com/ https://www.coursereport.com/ and www.switchup.org. Have her visit local meetups and conferences, there will surely be students/grads there that she can talk to and can get eyewitness reports from. Have her ask around to disinterested third parties that have had contact with the program and see what their appraisal of the program is. Have her contact the program and see if they will provide contacts to grads that she can talk to (while they may be biased, a 'yes' is much better that a 'no'). (Full disclosure: I went to a bootcamp and got a good job very soon afterwards which I have had for a year. True, some programs are shady, but these seem to shut down quickly. A bit of research seems like all that needs to be done to make a decision and if it works for her there is no reason to worry.)

bokglobule 10y ago

Actually I think this self-learning approach is a great example of what it takes to be a great developer regardless of background (or formal training). http://signaltower.co/jennifer-dewalt/ http://signaltower.co/jennifer-dewalt/ She built one project each day for 180 days learning a bit more each day. She chronicled her mistakes and successes. HN had a post on it at the time and the majority of developers that responded were very supportive.

vmorgulis 10y ago

To try FreeCodeCamp first: https://www.freecodecamp.com/ https://www.freecodecamp.com/

alistproducer2 10y ago

Why not just apply to a master's program? She can probably get a dev job while enrolled. At least then she'll get a better signaling artifact than a boot camp certificate and probably spend less doing it.