4 ms·

Whataboutism at its finest. These guys will go full nuclear.

coldtea 10y ago
Whataboutism is actually the independent stance: caring to judge all actors in a situation for what they are. Condemnations of whataboutism is just sticking with one's side, and attributing all evil to the other side. Instead of having a historical, and morally accurate, perspective. And it's even more hideous and morally outrageous if the side one is not willing to criticize is several time worse than the other.
- facetube 10y ago
  Unfortunately, a objective retrospective comparison of the most recent two nuclear-weapons-controlling administrations isn't possible; we're fully aboard the train. We're forced to predict based upon the words and vision the president offers. Unfortunately, Mr. Trump's vision (in Mr. Trump's own words) is a dark one: "American carnage". The promises of Trump have the potential to go far, far worse than the results of Obama. And no amount of blaming him will help.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >Unfortunately, Mr. Trump's vision (in Mr. Trump's own words) is a dark one: "American carnage". "American carnage" is what Mr. Trump said he would stop. Not some kind of vision he has for the future. Personally I don't see the "American carnage" (if anything, it's the opposite), except if he means that us corporate interests (of which he is part, anyway) stomp on the American middle/working classes. People outside of the US have even less the luxury of an "objective retrospective comparison". And a direct to-the-moment comparison is that the previous administration(s) were so much into wars, invading, meddling etc, and created so many open sores and hell-holes where they invaded or intervened or supported "national interests", that it will take a lot of work for Mr. Trump to be as dangerous to the world at large. If anything, he has shown to be quite isolationist, which would be a welcome change. (Of course I understand that the lives of non-US citizens don't seem to be as much a concern to the US pundits, compared to say, whether something like "Obamacare" is repealed or whether someone with redneck-y ideals is in power. But it does matter to the people elsewhere who lose those lives).
    - facetube 10y ago
      There is no American carnage. That's the problem. We are, on average, the safest and securest we've ever been. Issuing travel bans fails to recognize economic interdependence, thereby drawing us into conflict. Putting Iran "on notice" draws us into conflict. Having a president who asked Russia to perform opposition research for him on July 27th, 2016 draws us into conflict. We need to stop.
      - ryandvm 10y ago
        Sure, "on average" our prosperity is at its peak; but the problem is that it's only on average. I moved from the midwest to the coast because of the economic disparity that is causing so much trouble. Have you been to Indiana? Large parts of it have transformed into a meth-addled, jobless, wasteland. There is "carnage" in the formerly agricultural and manufacturing states and that's a large part of what Trump tapped into.
        facetube 10y ago
        I grew up there. It's relatively easy for me to understand why Hillary Clinton didn't get elected, and why there's disappointment in Obama: while we're still incredibly well-off in a global sense, the post-Bush 2009-2010 recovery was uneven at best. Automation and changing technical literacy requirements have shut a portion of America out of jobs. I get it. What's hard for me to understand is why anyone thinks Donald Trump – the guy with no experience and a giant ego who lies all the time – could possibly be an improvement. The meth-addled and jobless need access to health care, extended unemployment insurance, affordable education, access to low-cost housing, and jobs programs. Donald Trump isn't going to deliver improvements in any of these areas. He'll actively make the situation worse, then lie about what he did. It's the only mode he's ever operated in. His next bankruptcy will be ours, and everyone will be worse off as a result.
      - coding123 10y ago
        I can't wait for Russia to compete with our massive small dick complex and build more nukes, I was hoping my recent move to a small town would save me, but at this rate they'll have a nuke for areas populated with just tree frogs.
patrickg_zill 10y ago
First you say there is (I suppose you mean in absolute terms) no moral equivalence, but now you admit that Obama did the things I mention, but claim Trump will be worse. That is a moving of the goalposts.

Whataboutism is actually the independent stance: caring to judge all actors in a situation for what they are. Condemnations of whataboutism is just sticking with one's side, and attributing all evil to the other side. Instead of having a historical, and morally accurate, perspective. And it's even more hideous and morally outrageous if the side one is not willing to criticize is several time worse than the other.

facetube 10y ago
Unfortunately, a objective retrospective comparison of the most recent two nuclear-weapons-controlling administrations isn't possible; we're fully aboard the train. We're forced to predict based upon the words and vision the president offers. Unfortunately, Mr. Trump's vision (in Mr. Trump's own words) is a dark one: "American carnage". The promises of Trump have the potential to go far, far worse than the results of Obama. And no amount of blaming him will help.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >Unfortunately, Mr. Trump's vision (in Mr. Trump's own words) is a dark one: "American carnage". "American carnage" is what Mr. Trump said he would stop. Not some kind of vision he has for the future. Personally I don't see the "American carnage" (if anything, it's the opposite), except if he means that us corporate interests (of which he is part, anyway) stomp on the American middle/working classes. People outside of the US have even less the luxury of an "objective retrospective comparison". And a direct to-the-moment comparison is that the previous administration(s) were so much into wars, invading, meddling etc, and created so many open sores and hell-holes where they invaded or intervened or supported "national interests", that it will take a lot of work for Mr. Trump to be as dangerous to the world at large. If anything, he has shown to be quite isolationist, which would be a welcome change. (Of course I understand that the lives of non-US citizens don't seem to be as much a concern to the US pundits, compared to say, whether something like "Obamacare" is repealed or whether someone with redneck-y ideals is in power. But it does matter to the people elsewhere who lose those lives).
  - facetube 10y ago
    There is no American carnage. That's the problem. We are, on average, the safest and securest we've ever been. Issuing travel bans fails to recognize economic interdependence, thereby drawing us into conflict. Putting Iran "on notice" draws us into conflict. Having a president who asked Russia to perform opposition research for him on July 27th, 2016 draws us into conflict. We need to stop.
    - ryandvm 10y ago
      Sure, "on average" our prosperity is at its peak; but the problem is that it's only on average. I moved from the midwest to the coast because of the economic disparity that is causing so much trouble. Have you been to Indiana? Large parts of it have transformed into a meth-addled, jobless, wasteland. There is "carnage" in the formerly agricultural and manufacturing states and that's a large part of what Trump tapped into.
      - facetube 10y ago
        I grew up there. It's relatively easy for me to understand why Hillary Clinton didn't get elected, and why there's disappointment in Obama: while we're still incredibly well-off in a global sense, the post-Bush 2009-2010 recovery was uneven at best. Automation and changing technical literacy requirements have shut a portion of America out of jobs. I get it. What's hard for me to understand is why anyone thinks Donald Trump – the guy with no experience and a giant ego who lies all the time – could possibly be an improvement. The meth-addled and jobless need access to health care, extended unemployment insurance, affordable education, access to low-cost housing, and jobs programs. Donald Trump isn't going to deliver improvements in any of these areas. He'll actively make the situation worse, then lie about what he did. It's the only mode he's ever operated in. His next bankruptcy will be ours, and everyone will be worse off as a result.
    - coding123 10y ago
      I can't wait for Russia to compete with our massive small dick complex and build more nukes, I was hoping my recent move to a small town would save me, but at this rate they'll have a nuke for areas populated with just tree frogs.

patrickg_zill 10y ago

First you say there is (I suppose you mean in absolute terms) no moral equivalence, but now you admit that Obama did the things I mention, but claim Trump will be worse. That is a moving of the goalposts.