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I didn't downvote you, but I disagree strongly. I am leftist and my experience with other people on the left is that they overwhelmingly disagree with the point

by js8 10y ago

I didn't downvote you, but I disagree strongly. I am leftist and my experience with other people on the left is that they overwhelmingly disagree with the points you ascribe to them. (Except perhaps the first one, I think it's quite sane to trust experts.) It's perhaps because you listen to "left-wing" politicians and people in power, and you're out of touch with people who have actual leftist opinions, that you get this impression. But it has nothing to do with being left-wing as it has it with being in power. So, I think you should stop labeling those things as leftist (they are not - democracy is in fact very much a leftist idea), you're only hurting your own cause, by seeing enemies where you could have allies.

xd 10y ago
"by seeing enemies where you could have allies." Ironically that's what we are seeing from the left, they see anyone that doesn't share their narrative as the enemy, in need of reeducating, and use the most abhorrent language to describe them, even going as far as comparing people to Hitler. And these "experts" you talk of, they're just as politically motivated as you are, think about that.
- js8 10y ago
  I have a hard time to understand your comment, in particular, what you mean by "narrative" and "we"? Could you give an actual example (quote) of what you consider to be bad from "the left"? Let me give you an opposite example, so that the discussion is not so abstract: Yanis Varoufakis disagrees with all those 4 points (see DiEM25) and he is a leftist. Experts are politically motivated, like everybody, yes. But that doesn't mean they don't give useful advice. I mean, your doctor is politically motivated, are you going not to trust him? Do you agree with: "Don't trust your doctor, only yourself"? In general, not trusting experts by default is a bad idea (maybe better would be to say: not trusting experts blindly is worse than trusting them blindly).
  - xd 10y ago
    If you don't understand my use of the word "we" as in the opposition/Right, or "narrative" as in political narrative; we are off to a bad start. A quick example of bad left would be their reaction to Brexit and anyone that voted in favor of it, which to them meant, overnight half the country became racist. Now, comparing a doctor, whom don't base their care on political opinions - to, say, financial experts that have something to gain from their "expert opinions" are two very different types of expert. But again, this is what we see coming from the left all the time, everything is black and white, there is no middle ground, you are either with us or a whole host of 'ism words. Funny thing is, doctors actually have to make shitty calls i.e. triage, and sometimes society can be so broken, that to fix things, shitty calls need to be made; something the left are utterly incapable of doing.
    - js8 10y ago
      I don't really know how to reply, I offered a productive discussion but you seem to refuse it. Since I obviously disagree what is "left" (and since I identify on the left, I would dare to say I have a better idea what it actually is), clearly I don't understand who you mean by "we" and "them". (Which is funny especially since you accuse the left from seeing things in binary.) See, I offer to educate you, what actually left is about, maybe you would find that you actually agree with it (which wouldn't be surprising for me). But unless you give me an example of person you think is leftist and has those opinions, I cannot proceed - I don't know what exactly is your misconception about left. Your remark about Brexit is funny - I do consider Jeremy Corbyn to be leftist, even though I disagree with him on Brexit. So does he call himself racist? Give me a specific example (aka quote), then we can discuss if the statement or the person is leftist and how much. The left is actually pretty wide, diverse set of people, with many opinions (that's why I asked what the "narrative" means in this context, there is no one). You certainly cannot categorize it as "them" and "us". (And you are the one giving blank statements like "the left are utterly incapable of doing".) About the experts - it's not really about the profession either. I mean, if you were given the choice to trust the same expert person, 1-year into their career versus 20-years into their career, you would probably choose the latter one, who is probably the bigger expert of the two. I think the key thing with "experts" is actually not whether to trust experts or not, that's a false dichotomy. The real issue is: How to choose an expert? Which is tricky (although I know some tricks), but beyond my interest in this discussion.
mike_hearn 10y ago
Thanks for the reasoned debate. I'm not a big fan of downvoting in political discussions. I am basing my list on attitudes expressed by people in: 1) The Guardian 2) The Labour party 3) Friends who I know strongly identify as left wing I think you'll agree Labour, the Guardian and people who explicitly identify as left wing are all describable as left wing. Most people won't explicitly state outright that they distrust democracy. But all I have to do is examine the number of MPs that voted against the Article 50 bill (to begin implementation of the referendum) in each party to see a clear difference between the right and left wing parties. It was after all the Tories that gave the UK a referendum on the EU, and Labour that said they would and then went back on their promise. All I have to do is compare randomly chosen articles in the Guardian and (say) the Telegraph to see the clear difference in attitudes. And when I look at what my friends are sharing on Facebook, there's a clear correlation between those who were most appalled by Brexit and the ones who are constantly sharing anti-Tory screeds. So, I do feel that my experiences are pretty consistent in this regard, and I know from articles and comments I read elsewhere that I'm not alone in this.
- js8 10y ago
  I read Guardian from time to time and while there is some (renewed) distrust to democracy, not sure it really comes from leftists (I cannot track all journalist's political views). AFAICT the ones that I recognize as leftist (e.g. Monbiot) haven't changed their mind at all. In my experience, distrust in democracy is pretty similar on left/right spectrum, mostly correlated with elitism. Many (although a minority) of university graduates are (ostensibly) leftist yet elitist. It also has been shown that people who are in power (for example ruling party, members of parliament, etc.) are more likely to oppose (direct) democracy. That's probably the strongest predictor. I don't believe that people who brought the Brexit referendum had democracy in their hearts, unfortunately. I have seen examples of politicians proposing a specific referendum because they thought the idea has majority support, and refusing referendum in other instances (for example, I doubt conservatives want referendum for Scottish secession in case of Brexit). But regardless, I suggest you educate your friends. Democracy is the leftist idea (because it treats everybody as having equal power), this goes back to origin of the word left/right in the French parliament.

by js8 10y ago

xd 10y ago

"by seeing enemies where you could have allies." Ironically that's what we are seeing from the left, they see anyone that doesn't share their narrative as the enemy, in need of reeducating, and use the most abhorrent language to describe them, even going as far as comparing people to Hitler. And these "experts" you talk of, they're just as politically motivated as you are, think about that.

js8 10y ago
I have a hard time to understand your comment, in particular, what you mean by "narrative" and "we"? Could you give an actual example (quote) of what you consider to be bad from "the left"? Let me give you an opposite example, so that the discussion is not so abstract: Yanis Varoufakis disagrees with all those 4 points (see DiEM25) and he is a leftist. Experts are politically motivated, like everybody, yes. But that doesn't mean they don't give useful advice. I mean, your doctor is politically motivated, are you going not to trust him? Do you agree with: "Don't trust your doctor, only yourself"? In general, not trusting experts by default is a bad idea (maybe better would be to say: not trusting experts blindly is worse than trusting them blindly).
- xd 10y ago
  If you don't understand my use of the word "we" as in the opposition/Right, or "narrative" as in political narrative; we are off to a bad start. A quick example of bad left would be their reaction to Brexit and anyone that voted in favor of it, which to them meant, overnight half the country became racist. Now, comparing a doctor, whom don't base their care on political opinions - to, say, financial experts that have something to gain from their "expert opinions" are two very different types of expert. But again, this is what we see coming from the left all the time, everything is black and white, there is no middle ground, you are either with us or a whole host of 'ism words. Funny thing is, doctors actually have to make shitty calls i.e. triage, and sometimes society can be so broken, that to fix things, shitty calls need to be made; something the left are utterly incapable of doing.
  - js8 10y ago
    I don't really know how to reply, I offered a productive discussion but you seem to refuse it. Since I obviously disagree what is "left" (and since I identify on the left, I would dare to say I have a better idea what it actually is), clearly I don't understand who you mean by "we" and "them". (Which is funny especially since you accuse the left from seeing things in binary.) See, I offer to educate you, what actually left is about, maybe you would find that you actually agree with it (which wouldn't be surprising for me). But unless you give me an example of person you think is leftist and has those opinions, I cannot proceed - I don't know what exactly is your misconception about left. Your remark about Brexit is funny - I do consider Jeremy Corbyn to be leftist, even though I disagree with him on Brexit. So does he call himself racist? Give me a specific example (aka quote), then we can discuss if the statement or the person is leftist and how much. The left is actually pretty wide, diverse set of people, with many opinions (that's why I asked what the "narrative" means in this context, there is no one). You certainly cannot categorize it as "them" and "us". (And you are the one giving blank statements like "the left are utterly incapable of doing".) About the experts - it's not really about the profession either. I mean, if you were given the choice to trust the same expert person, 1-year into their career versus 20-years into their career, you would probably choose the latter one, who is probably the bigger expert of the two. I think the key thing with "experts" is actually not whether to trust experts or not, that's a false dichotomy. The real issue is: How to choose an expert? Which is tricky (although I know some tricks), but beyond my interest in this discussion.

mike_hearn 10y ago

Thanks for the reasoned debate. I'm not a big fan of downvoting in political discussions. I am basing my list on attitudes expressed by people in: 1) The Guardian 2) The Labour party 3) Friends who I know strongly identify as left wing I think you'll agree Labour, the Guardian and people who explicitly identify as left wing are all describable as left wing. Most people won't explicitly state outright that they distrust democracy. But all I have to do is examine the number of MPs that voted against the Article 50 bill (to begin implementation of the referendum) in each party to see a clear difference between the right and left wing parties. It was after all the Tories that gave the UK a referendum on the EU, and Labour that said they would and then went back on their promise. All I have to do is compare randomly chosen articles in the Guardian and (say) the Telegraph to see the clear difference in attitudes. And when I look at what my friends are sharing on Facebook, there's a clear correlation between those who were most appalled by Brexit and the ones who are constantly sharing anti-Tory screeds. So, I do feel that my experiences are pretty consistent in this regard, and I know from articles and comments I read elsewhere that I'm not alone in this.

js8 10y ago
I read Guardian from time to time and while there is some (renewed) distrust to democracy, not sure it really comes from leftists (I cannot track all journalist's political views). AFAICT the ones that I recognize as leftist (e.g. Monbiot) haven't changed their mind at all. In my experience, distrust in democracy is pretty similar on left/right spectrum, mostly correlated with elitism. Many (although a minority) of university graduates are (ostensibly) leftist yet elitist. It also has been shown that people who are in power (for example ruling party, members of parliament, etc.) are more likely to oppose (direct) democracy. That's probably the strongest predictor. I don't believe that people who brought the Brexit referendum had democracy in their hearts, unfortunately. I have seen examples of politicians proposing a specific referendum because they thought the idea has majority support, and refusing referendum in other instances (for example, I doubt conservatives want referendum for Scottish secession in case of Brexit). But regardless, I suggest you educate your friends. Democracy is the leftist idea (because it treats everybody as having equal power), this goes back to origin of the word left/right in the French parliament.