5 ms·

Doesn't seem to work with javascript turned off. In earlier days this was first sign of being progressive, but new generation of developers doesn't seem to car

by gorm 10y ago

Doesn't seem to work with javascript turned off. In earlier days this was first sign of being progressive, but new generation of developers doesn't seem to care about this?

WA 10y ago
Progressive web apps (PWAs) are JS-apps that can be used offline in a browser.
simonfl3tcher 10y ago
As @WA suggests PWA's are JS-apps that can be used offline in a browser. You need JavaScript to instantiate the Service Worker which caches the request, without JS and in turn the Service Worker you no longer have a PWA. PWA's are something that Google is pushing pretty hard right now, to me that suggests there is becoming less of a concern around JavaScript being turned off than previous years. https://developers.google.com/web/progressive-web-apps/ https://developers.google.com/web/progressive-web-apps/
- Touche 10y ago
  Progressive enhancement is not about people turning off JavaScript, it's about JavaScript failing, which can happen for a variety of reasons.
pluma 10y ago
Progressive Web Apps (PWAs) are not really related to progressive enhancement. The former is about web apps that bridge the gap between web and native. Technologically the foundation lies in using service workers for offline support, and serving the app over SSL. Not only do these web apps work offline but when using modern browsers on mobile (e.g. Firefox/Chrome on Android) it's possible to "install" them and use them like native apps. The latter is about websites that don't rely on CSS or JS to provide critical interaction, i.e. making the website work if neither CSS nor JS is available (though generally this is simplified to "when JS is disabled"). Apart from the name the two are only related in that both are intended to help users in sub-optimal scenarios (e.g. on slow/unreliable connections).
- Touche 10y ago
  "web apps" vs. "websites" isn't a black and white thing. SPA advocates like to say they are building "web apps" as an excuse for providing a shitty user experience. Clearly some things are more app-like (Slack) and some things are more site-like (NYT), but there's a giant gray-area in the middle. People in that gray-area call their things apps so they could avoid responsibility.
  - andybak 10y ago
    Yep. I wonder if we could memify this in an attempt to fight back: "Your f*ing blog is not an app" or something similar. The complete abandonment of any form of progressive enhancement is depressing. We need to get some real metrics on user engagement (slow load over poor connections), SEO drawbacks (yes google can index this stuff but does it rank as well?) and accessibility (how well do screen readers really cope?). Get some facts and start hitting people over the head with them.
    - pluma 10y ago
      You might want to look deeper into PWAs. Nothing about PWAs says you can't do server-side rendering. In fact, performance and offline support are major factors in development quality. Lighthouse (linked from the repo) checks for these things too.
      - andybak 10y ago
        Yes I suppose so - but to realistically get server-side rendering I'm currently forced to use javascript on the server as well as the client and that is not a price I'm prepared to play. Hopefully that will change.
        pluma 10y ago
        > forced to use javascript Sounds like your gripe is less with client-side code than with JavaScript as a language. We have a saying for that in my native language. It roughly translates as "All I hear is mimimi...".
lucideer 10y ago
As others here have remarked, a PWA is a term with a specific meaning: it was coined with the advent of the Service Worker API to refer to any webapp using the service worker cache. However, that still doesn't rule out producing a "progressively enhanced" progressive web app. In fact, React (which this project uses) makes progressive enhancement even easier with ReactDOMServer and the componentWillMount/componentDidMount differentiation. So the downvotes are particularly unwarranted.

by gorm 10y ago

Doesn't seem to work with javascript turned off. In earlier days this was first sign of being progressive, but new generation of developers doesn't seem to care about this?

WA 10y ago

Progressive web apps (PWAs) are JS-apps that can be used offline in a browser.

simonfl3tcher 10y ago

As @WA suggests PWA's are JS-apps that can be used offline in a browser. You need JavaScript to instantiate the Service Worker which caches the request, without JS and in turn the Service Worker you no longer have a PWA. PWA's are something that Google is pushing pretty hard right now, to me that suggests there is becoming less of a concern around JavaScript being turned off than previous years. https://developers.google.com/web/progressive-web-apps/ https://developers.google.com/web/progressive-web-apps/

Touche 10y ago
Progressive enhancement is not about people turning off JavaScript, it's about JavaScript failing, which can happen for a variety of reasons.

pluma 10y ago

Progressive Web Apps (PWAs) are not really related to progressive enhancement. The former is about web apps that bridge the gap between web and native. Technologically the foundation lies in using service workers for offline support, and serving the app over SSL. Not only do these web apps work offline but when using modern browsers on mobile (e.g. Firefox/Chrome on Android) it's possible to "install" them and use them like native apps. The latter is about websites that don't rely on CSS or JS to provide critical interaction, i.e. making the website work if neither CSS nor JS is available (though generally this is simplified to "when JS is disabled"). Apart from the name the two are only related in that both are intended to help users in sub-optimal scenarios (e.g. on slow/unreliable connections).

Touche 10y ago
"web apps" vs. "websites" isn't a black and white thing. SPA advocates like to say they are building "web apps" as an excuse for providing a shitty user experience. Clearly some things are more app-like (Slack) and some things are more site-like (NYT), but there's a giant gray-area in the middle. People in that gray-area call their things apps so they could avoid responsibility.
- andybak 10y ago
  Yep. I wonder if we could memify this in an attempt to fight back: "Your f*ing blog is not an app" or something similar. The complete abandonment of any form of progressive enhancement is depressing. We need to get some real metrics on user engagement (slow load over poor connections), SEO drawbacks (yes google can index this stuff but does it rank as well?) and accessibility (how well do screen readers really cope?). Get some facts and start hitting people over the head with them.
  - pluma 10y ago
    You might want to look deeper into PWAs. Nothing about PWAs says you can't do server-side rendering. In fact, performance and offline support are major factors in development quality. Lighthouse (linked from the repo) checks for these things too.
    - andybak 10y ago
      Yes I suppose so - but to realistically get server-side rendering I'm currently forced to use javascript on the server as well as the client and that is not a price I'm prepared to play. Hopefully that will change.
      - pluma 10y ago
        > forced to use javascript Sounds like your gripe is less with client-side code than with JavaScript as a language. We have a saying for that in my native language. It roughly translates as "All I hear is mimimi...".

lucideer 10y ago

As others here have remarked, a PWA is a term with a specific meaning: it was coined with the advent of the Service Worker API to refer to any webapp using the service worker cache. However, that still doesn't rule out producing a "progressively enhanced" progressive web app. In fact, React (which this project uses) makes progressive enhancement even easier with ReactDOMServer and the componentWillMount/componentDidMount differentiation. So the downvotes are particularly unwarranted.