4 ms·

It's not just the headline. This is essentially describing charity to poor communities. That's not new. The article's connection between it and "basic income"

It's not just the headline. This is essentially describing charity to poor communities. That's not new. The article's connection between it and "basic income" is tenuous. To be fair, that's not the fault of the article as much as the program itself. How is charity to poor rural communities with collectivist leanings a test of the vague notion of basic income? Or what will this program tell us about basic income in the US with 300 million people and a much higher standard of living? Admirable social program, yes. A test of the viability of basic income worldwide? Not so much.

BuuQu9hu 10y ago
With each step, we shall come closer to a test which is applicable to the USA's poor. For now, we are establishing whether the concept works at all. The article described several previous tests, each of smaller scale and with flaws which this new test aims to eliminate. This program will tell us what the next test should look like.
- aaron-lebo 10y ago
  Do you mind pointing out where? I went back through the article and found: With this initiative, GiveDirectly — with an office in New York and funded in no small part by Silicon Valley — is starting the world’s first true test of a universal basic income. As you stated, there have been other attempts, so I don't know what the definition of "first true test" is. A universal basic income has thus far lacked what tech folks might call a proof of concept. There have been a handful of experiments, including ones in Canada, India and Namibia. Finland is sending money to unemployed people, and the Dutch city Utrecht is doing a trial run, too. But no experiment has been truly complete, studying what happens when you give a whole community money for an extended period of time — when nobody has to worry where his or her next meal is coming from or fear the loss of a job or the birth of a child. The Mincome experiment was 5-years. Why was it not "truly complete"? http://www.marketplace.org/2016/12/20/world/dauphin http://www.marketplace.org/2016/12/20/world/dauphin Back to the article: That, surprisingly, worked well enough to give them the confidence to start a threadbare randomized control trial the year they graduated. It found that the recipients, who received an average of $500, saw excellent outcomes: Their children were 42 percent less likely to go a whole day without eating. Domestic-violence rates dropped, and mental health improved. Not trying to be argumentative, just not sure what this is testing. What is it controlling for? What is it doing different from previous experiments? What does giving money to every person in a poor community tell you that giving money to poor people in a wealthy community doesn't? These are very rural and impoverished communities by developed standards. Giving money to the poorest of the poor seems like an obvious improvement for them. What it doesn't say is how you can do it anywhere else.
  - marmot777 10y ago
    It looks to me like you are correct the Canadian thing looks like a universal income. So it could be just a garden variety error on the part of the NYT journalist to say it was the first. I'm happy there are other tests going on. Maybe I'm a hopeless idealist but I've always been optimistic about the future but that optimism has been pushed to the wall lately. This was the first thing I've read I while that made me think maybe the future isn't going to be a total dystopian nightmare. Maybe there's hope.
  - zuminator 10y ago
    Mincome guaranteed an income floor but it was not UBI. It was a means-tested income supplement to ensure that someone's income didn't fall below $16K year. If they already made $16K they didn't get any Mincome. If they made $8K, they got $8K Mincome. GiveDirectly gives everyone in the community who registers $22 month. The amount doesn't go down if the person starts to independently generate income. It will be universal, not means-tested. This isn't necessarily a better experiment, but it is a different one. What does giving money to every person in a poor community tell you that giving money to poor people in a wealthy community doesn't? Well, we don't know. Hence this experiment. Mincome, however successful, was basically a deluxe "welfare" program with all the negative baggage that comes with it. If we're giving a supplement to the poor, and taking away that supplement if they become wealthy, some argue it functions as a 100% tax on work, hence functioning as a disincentive. (That's in addition to the "disincentive" of not forcing poor people to work to meet their basic needs.) If you're in Mincome, why take an $8,000 yr. side job? It would be like working for free. But a person on GiveDirectly, if they get a $10/month side job, their total income will be $32. Side work will continue to be a financially productive investment. It's a different type of experiment.
marmot777 10y ago
Because it's cash on the barrelhead. Most aid of all sorts and most social safety net programs are not that straight forward. Also, universal basic income presumably won't penalize people for working or starting a business.
- aaron-lebo 10y ago
  Also, universal basic income presumably won't penalize people for working or starting a business. There's no universal definition of basic income and it certainly won't be so straightforward once it goes through the meat-grinder of legislation. It's cash on the barrelhead to the poorest of the poor from outside organizations. That's charity.
  - marmot777 10y ago
    I don't understand your point with regard to charity. What's your objection if this is charity? I understand your concern about messy legislation but is that an argument against it? I see your point, though. I'm guessing, possibly wrong, that the people involved in this have considered or at least will consider how this will be implemented and will fund lobbying to try to get this done as cleanly as possible. I realize I'm making some assumptions here but people aren't going to invest boatloads of money in testing a concept than just let it fail during deployment.
sdenton4 10y ago
A lovely asymmetry: econ research on people living in the west is assumed to be generalizable and applicable to populations worldwide, while research on non-westerners is assumed not to be general in scope...
- marmot777 10y ago
  Are they assuming it's generalizable or are they going to find out with testing?
marmot777 10y ago
I may be repeating myself but I think aid programs and welfare programs usually aren't as efficient as cash transfers and usually include a means test. The vision, at least, of this program is cash and no means test. There's the classic problem of the leaky bucket, meaning that overhead drains some resources before they reach the problem itself. Cash is about as efficient as it gets.
mirimir 10y ago
No, it's not just "describing charity to poor communities". It's about efficiently jump-starting them. Sure, ~$1 per day is very little. But in Kenya, it's enough to start small businesses. And with no need assessment or repayment management, the overhead is very low. Also, I suspect that at least some successful recipients would willingly become donors, making the system somewhat self-supporting. Average incomes in the US are much greater, for sure. But there are places in the US where average income is just as small, relative to the national average. And what will happen when trucking is fully automated? What would prevent parts of the US from becoming as impoverished as this area in Kenya? Edit: typo

BuuQu9hu 10y ago

With each step, we shall come closer to a test which is applicable to the USA's poor. For now, we are establishing whether the concept works at all. The article described several previous tests, each of smaller scale and with flaws which this new test aims to eliminate. This program will tell us what the next test should look like.

aaron-lebo 10y ago
Do you mind pointing out where? I went back through the article and found: With this initiative, GiveDirectly — with an office in New York and funded in no small part by Silicon Valley — is starting the world’s first true test of a universal basic income. As you stated, there have been other attempts, so I don't know what the definition of "first true test" is. A universal basic income has thus far lacked what tech folks might call a proof of concept. There have been a handful of experiments, including ones in Canada, India and Namibia. Finland is sending money to unemployed people, and the Dutch city Utrecht is doing a trial run, too. But no experiment has been truly complete, studying what happens when you give a whole community money for an extended period of time — when nobody has to worry where his or her next meal is coming from or fear the loss of a job or the birth of a child. The Mincome experiment was 5-years. Why was it not "truly complete"? http://www.marketplace.org/2016/12/20/world/dauphin http://www.marketplace.org/2016/12/20/world/dauphin Back to the article: That, surprisingly, worked well enough to give them the confidence to start a threadbare randomized control trial the year they graduated. It found that the recipients, who received an average of $500, saw excellent outcomes: Their children were 42 percent less likely to go a whole day without eating. Domestic-violence rates dropped, and mental health improved. Not trying to be argumentative, just not sure what this is testing. What is it controlling for? What is it doing different from previous experiments? What does giving money to every person in a poor community tell you that giving money to poor people in a wealthy community doesn't? These are very rural and impoverished communities by developed standards. Giving money to the poorest of the poor seems like an obvious improvement for them. What it doesn't say is how you can do it anywhere else.
- marmot777 10y ago
  It looks to me like you are correct the Canadian thing looks like a universal income. So it could be just a garden variety error on the part of the NYT journalist to say it was the first. I'm happy there are other tests going on. Maybe I'm a hopeless idealist but I've always been optimistic about the future but that optimism has been pushed to the wall lately. This was the first thing I've read I while that made me think maybe the future isn't going to be a total dystopian nightmare. Maybe there's hope.
- zuminator 10y ago
  Mincome guaranteed an income floor but it was not UBI. It was a means-tested income supplement to ensure that someone's income didn't fall below $16K year. If they already made $16K they didn't get any Mincome. If they made $8K, they got $8K Mincome. GiveDirectly gives everyone in the community who registers $22 month. The amount doesn't go down if the person starts to independently generate income. It will be universal, not means-tested. This isn't necessarily a better experiment, but it is a different one. What does giving money to every person in a poor community tell you that giving money to poor people in a wealthy community doesn't? Well, we don't know. Hence this experiment. Mincome, however successful, was basically a deluxe "welfare" program with all the negative baggage that comes with it. If we're giving a supplement to the poor, and taking away that supplement if they become wealthy, some argue it functions as a 100% tax on work, hence functioning as a disincentive. (That's in addition to the "disincentive" of not forcing poor people to work to meet their basic needs.) If you're in Mincome, why take an $8,000 yr. side job? It would be like working for free. But a person on GiveDirectly, if they get a $10/month side job, their total income will be $32. Side work will continue to be a financially productive investment. It's a different type of experiment.

marmot777 10y ago

Because it's cash on the barrelhead. Most aid of all sorts and most social safety net programs are not that straight forward. Also, universal basic income presumably won't penalize people for working or starting a business.

aaron-lebo 10y ago
Also, universal basic income presumably won't penalize people for working or starting a business. There's no universal definition of basic income and it certainly won't be so straightforward once it goes through the meat-grinder of legislation. It's cash on the barrelhead to the poorest of the poor from outside organizations. That's charity.
- marmot777 10y ago
  I don't understand your point with regard to charity. What's your objection if this is charity? I understand your concern about messy legislation but is that an argument against it? I see your point, though. I'm guessing, possibly wrong, that the people involved in this have considered or at least will consider how this will be implemented and will fund lobbying to try to get this done as cleanly as possible. I realize I'm making some assumptions here but people aren't going to invest boatloads of money in testing a concept than just let it fail during deployment.

sdenton4 10y ago

A lovely asymmetry: econ research on people living in the west is assumed to be generalizable and applicable to populations worldwide, while research on non-westerners is assumed not to be general in scope...

marmot777 10y ago
Are they assuming it's generalizable or are they going to find out with testing?

marmot777 10y ago

I may be repeating myself but I think aid programs and welfare programs usually aren't as efficient as cash transfers and usually include a means test. The vision, at least, of this program is cash and no means test. There's the classic problem of the leaky bucket, meaning that overhead drains some resources before they reach the problem itself. Cash is about as efficient as it gets.

mirimir 10y ago

No, it's not just "describing charity to poor communities". It's about efficiently jump-starting them. Sure, ~$1 per day is very little. But in Kenya, it's enough to start small businesses. And with no need assessment or repayment management, the overhead is very low. Also, I suspect that at least some successful recipients would willingly become donors, making the system somewhat self-supporting. Average incomes in the US are much greater, for sure. But there are places in the US where average income is just as small, relative to the national average. And what will happen when trucking is fully automated? What would prevent parts of the US from becoming as impoverished as this area in Kenya? Edit: typo