5 ms·

You can take that view on any number of issues: "It'll get better when these people get their act together". The problem is, you'll never see the day when that

You can take that view on any number of issues: "It'll get better when these people get their act together". The problem is, you'll never see the day when that happens, so proper allocation of blame is completely beside the point. If, on the other hand, you stop trying to figure out who deserves to be helped, you can actually make a difference.

anonymous58020 10y ago
> you'll never see the day when that happens Only because political correctness prevents us from shaming those newly infected with HIV. Instead they're victims who deserve our unconditional sympathy.
- argigg 10y ago
  There has been plenty of shame since the 80's, it didn't stop HIV then and it's not suddenly going to start working now.
  - BillinghamJ 10y ago
    You were marked as [dead] btw. Have vouched.
- tashi 10y ago
  Is shame especially effective at preventing irrational behavior? Is there anything in your life you would be doing differently if you were a 100% rational agent with unlimited willpower? If so, do you ever feel ashamed when you fall short?
  - anonymous58020 10y ago
    Do you think it's simply a coincidence that both divorce and out-of-wedlock births have become so much more common as they've become so much less stigmatized?
    - fatbird 10y ago
      Both divorce and out-of-wedlock births (and sexually transmitted infections) are highest, in the U.S., within the southern evangelical communities that most readily practice exactly the sort of shaming and stigmatizing you're talking about.
      - sndean 10y ago
        > Both divorce and out-of-wedlock births (and sexually transmitted infections) are highest, in the U.S., within the southern evangelical communities I was skeptical, but yeah that looks pretty much true for divorce in the Midwest / South (in 2000), at least: https://www.bgsu.edu/ncfmr/resources/data/original-data/county-level-marriage-divorce-data-2000.html https://www.bgsu.edu/ncfmr/resources/data/original-data/coun...
        fatbird 10y ago
        Here's a study that found "Increased religiosity in residents of states in the U.S. strongly predicted a higher teen birth rate.... With data aggregated at the state level, conservative religious beliefs strongly predict U.S. teen birth rates, in a relationship that does not appear to be the result of confounding by income or abortion rates. One possible explanation for this relationship is that teens in more religious communities may be less likely to use contraception." https://reproductive-health-journal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1742-4755-6-14 https://reproductive-health-journal.biomedcentral.com/articl...
  - zeroer 10y ago
    To your last two questions: Yes and yes.
    - tashi 10y ago
      Then your answer to the first question is no? Or am I misunderstanding?
      - zeroer 10y ago
        I didn't answer that question because I'm less certain that I know what I'm talking about. Sure, shame motivates. Maybe fear of shame could even be called a strong motivator? I don't know. Is it "especially" effective? Maybe. Compared to what? I feel like you could answer that with some experiments and better, more precise definitions. I didn't write the foregoing at first because it's a pretty boring answer. To contrast, your last two questions are in essence asking if I could be a better person. That's a no-brained.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

anonymous58020 10y ago

> you'll never see the day when that happens Only because political correctness prevents us from shaming those newly infected with HIV. Instead they're victims who deserve our unconditional sympathy.

argigg 10y ago
There has been plenty of shame since the 80's, it didn't stop HIV then and it's not suddenly going to start working now.
- BillinghamJ 10y ago
  You were marked as [dead] btw. Have vouched.
tashi 10y ago
Is shame especially effective at preventing irrational behavior? Is there anything in your life you would be doing differently if you were a 100% rational agent with unlimited willpower? If so, do you ever feel ashamed when you fall short?
- anonymous58020 10y ago
  Do you think it's simply a coincidence that both divorce and out-of-wedlock births have become so much more common as they've become so much less stigmatized?
  - fatbird 10y ago
    Both divorce and out-of-wedlock births (and sexually transmitted infections) are highest, in the U.S., within the southern evangelical communities that most readily practice exactly the sort of shaming and stigmatizing you're talking about.
    - sndean 10y ago
      > Both divorce and out-of-wedlock births (and sexually transmitted infections) are highest, in the U.S., within the southern evangelical communities I was skeptical, but yeah that looks pretty much true for divorce in the Midwest / South (in 2000), at least: https://www.bgsu.edu/ncfmr/resources/data/original-data/county-level-marriage-divorce-data-2000.html https://www.bgsu.edu/ncfmr/resources/data/original-data/coun...
      - fatbird 10y ago
        Here's a study that found "Increased religiosity in residents of states in the U.S. strongly predicted a higher teen birth rate.... With data aggregated at the state level, conservative religious beliefs strongly predict U.S. teen birth rates, in a relationship that does not appear to be the result of confounding by income or abortion rates. One possible explanation for this relationship is that teens in more religious communities may be less likely to use contraception." https://reproductive-health-journal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1742-4755-6-14 https://reproductive-health-journal.biomedcentral.com/articl...
- zeroer 10y ago
  To your last two questions: Yes and yes.
  - tashi 10y ago
    Then your answer to the first question is no? Or am I misunderstanding?
    - zeroer 10y ago
      I didn't answer that question because I'm less certain that I know what I'm talking about. Sure, shame motivates. Maybe fear of shame could even be called a strong motivator? I don't know. Is it "especially" effective? Maybe. Compared to what? I feel like you could answer that with some experiments and better, more precise definitions. I didn't write the foregoing at first because it's a pretty boring answer. To contrast, your last two questions are in essence asking if I could be a better person. That's a no-brained.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]